2 fish dead but cant find the problem!?!

[glaze888]

ok so i have had my tank setup for 3 months now and have had 2damsels in there from startup and put in a horseshoe crab soon after cycling was complete a week or so later i added a starfish and a coral beauty angel and he looked happy for about two weeks and then belly up. so i took it slow and checked all the parameters over and over, and only found that the ph had dropped b/c of the phosban. so i fixed the problem and was cautious and waited. the i got a powder brown tang and he was happy as a pig in mud and two weeks passed and what do you know belly up. i did all my checks and found that my kh was up too much. could this be the killer? i havent done a water change b/c i am trying to buy a new ro/di and am currently using distilled water from walmart and i dont want to use my well water. as far as my param.
0ppm ammonia
0ppm nitrites
0ppm nitrates
<0.5ppm phos
8.3 ph

and the tank is 45g
lighting is 4 t5's 2-460's and 2 6000k's... 460s run 8am-10pm and 6000ks run 10am-8pm(toomuch?)
corallife 65 skimmer
phosban 150
and a powerhead inside the tank for circulation it like made for 30g so its probably around 200gph or so


any info appr. want to stop killing my beautiful fish
thanks

 

[smoothie]

Tank is not big enough for either fish. Any white spots or heavy breathing?
What were you feeding, were they eating, what is the temp?

 

[cr500_af]

I'll also be the first to scold you for cycling with damsels.

That said, what about temp? When you "fixed" the pH, like Charlie asked, how? And just as importantly, how far did you change it and how fast? How much do you evaporate between topoffs (which will tell how far your salinity swings all at once)?

Did the fish stop eating or just die with no clues?

 

[glaze888]

ok ill try to answer all of these at once... sorry dont scold me please it hurts just help me not kill another fish.
ok the temp is 79 right now (usually between 76 and 80)
salinity is about 1.023 right now
food is ocean nutrition frozen brine plus
ph fix was from 7.8 to 8.3 with in minutes with seachem buffer max
just tested trates- &lt;5ppm nad on that note i use API testkits
fish did not stop eating
and as far as topoffs go i add a bout a gallon every 3-4 days


i hope that answered everyone any thing i missed then ask again and ill try and answer.

sorry that im pretty new at this. every one needs a little help at first and thats all im asking for.

 

[weaglereefer]

You're also going to want to get some more flow. 200gph in a 45 is not that much. You'll want 20x turnover minimum (900gph), usually more.

What kind of starfish did you add?

Horseshoe crabs usually don't last long in home aquariums. They're cool and stir the sand really well, but are meant for cooler temps.

Walmart water may be alright, but without a way to test their TDS, there's no way to know for sure. You could visit one of the fine local fish stores and get regular water for around $.50 a gallon, and I think some even sell pre-mixed salt water for $1 a gallon.

 

[smoothie]

Hey just noticed you're a restaurant employee. Nice!
Back on topic. Any spots or rapid breating? Also take a sample of water to a local store and have them check it for you. Doesn't cost anything or shouldn't especially if you are spending your money there. Tell them what tank you have. They should be able to help with your stock list in the future

 

[bobz]

I wouldn't think that your water quality was the problem based on what you told us, but I would have it verified at an LFS too, just to make sure. Are the damsels still in the tank? New fish need time to acclimate to new tanks and are very stressed out when they are added to a new system (QT in a quiet place is always a good idea to get them eating and less stressed and should be considered for new fish). It's possible that damsels were too aggressive and the two fish you lost could not adapt to the new tank and suffered through malnutrition to the point that their systems were weakened and more susceptible to disease. How long had they been at the LFS before you brought them home? Were they eating there? I would try and find a hardier species before adding anything to the tank and consider your stocking plan now. You may want to remove the damsels and bring them back to the LFS at this point, rather than suffer more losses through intimidation. Hang in there, we have alll gone through the learning curve and had losses. Glad you are asking for some advice before proceeding!

 

[bobz]

BTW, if you are interested in keeping Dwarf Angelfish, consider an Atlantic Pygmy Angelfish. They are very pretty, very small angels that would do well in that size tank. They are agressive as well, so if you are keeping the damsels, it (only one per tank) would probably fair well in a more agressive community.

 

[glaze888]

its a red and black chocolate chip star
i fed them 1/3 of a cube (35 cubes = 100grams)
and now that my fish died i cut back to 1/4 of a cube and i feed then in the morning between 9 and 11 depending.
and no rapid breathing but there was a few white spots on the tang but neither in the coral beauty
as far as flow i have a 560gph return and the 200gph in tank so im getting about 600 max in there. are you saying i need the 560 return and 900 more intank?

 

[drnecropolis]

Its best not to even count the return as flow.. I have around 5300gph going right now not counting my return and its a 120..I've found some of the frozen cubes of food to be full of phosphate also..could very well be an issue of the place you bought the fish from (no need to name the place.. You don't want to get into that)

 

[bobz]

I use a couple of Hydor Koralia 3s in my 65G which seems to be provide enough flow along with my return. You might be able to get away with a single 3 or two 2's to create a more suitable flow pattern.

 

[weaglereefer]

As said above, don't count the return in the "flow". I have around 4000gph + 500 or so for the return in my 90 gallon. Granted they're "pulsing" so it's not a constant volume. I think 2 K3's would be suffiient for your tank.

If you're planning to have corals at all, you will not want to have the chocolate chip starfish.

 

[skriz]

A powder brown is not the easiest fish to acclimate to a tank. Your tank being too small didn't help that situation.

Pygmy angels are grazers; they like to pick at the live rock all day long. Your tank is probably not established enough to sustain one.

Horseshoe crab probably starved to death.

Sounds like you need to choose your livestock better. Definately no tangs is a tank so small. Take a little time and research the fish that would do well in your tank and add them slowly.

You'll also want to start doing some water changes to keep your water quality up to par.

 

[bobz]

Skriz;386841 wrote: Pygmy angels are grazers; they like to pick at the live rock all day long. Your tank is probably not established enough to sustain one.

Raj is right about them liking to graze. I hadn't thought about the age of the tank when I suggested it. Best to wait until you have a more established tank to add a fish like this one.

BZ

 

[glaze888]

who said anything about a starved crab? him and the starfish get fed raw calamari regularly(up to twice a week) he's doing well actually. and thanks for the tip onflow but still only few have commented on the actual death of the two fish and possible suggestions to look into. oh i forgot to mention in the very first post that while cleaning the skimmer i bumped the flow valve on the phosban reactor and some small partical got into the main tank and land on the sand and on the rock, could this have contributed to the death

 

[bobz]

GLAZE888;386856 wrote: . oh i forgot to mention in the very first post that while cleaning the skimmer i bumped the flow valve on the phosban reactor and some small partical got into the main tank and land on the sand and on the rock, could this have contributed to the death

Unlikely, in my opinion. I really think that both fish died due to stress induced illness. They could have been in a weakened state to begin with and the PBT is notorious for being tought to acclimate and keep healthy when first introduced. Since you did not mention any outward signs of illness, like white spots, sores or sliming, it will be impossible to know. Are the damsels still in the tank and doig well? I may have missed that part of the story. If so, it is unlikely that their is something in the water chemistry causing a problem. Still, check and double check your params at the LFS.

 

[glaze888]

well what are some things i can do better to reduce stress next time i decide to add a new fish? get rid of the damsels? and what are the weekly routines you go through to make sure your tank is up to par

 

[mapleredta]

Nice another fellow middle georgia member! I too play COD on xbox. Mapleredta is my gamertag.

 

[glaze888]

nice modern warfare? sry but waw sucks! i will pm you later. look dawgdude i was not trying to debate you or refuse/neglect your knowladge and help. calm downfellow ijust didnt think the flow killed them and am anxious to know what happened.

 

[bobz]

GLAZE888;386875 wrote: well what are some things i can do better to reduce stress next time i decide to add a new fish? get rid of the damsels? and what are the weekly routines you go through to make sure your tank is up to par

A couple of things to consider when adding fish to the system:
1) Quarantine tank (QT) - I'm old school so I always QT fish in a seperate system from the main display to monitor them and make sure they are eating. Putting a new fish in to the display is stressfull on them and on the other fish in the tank potetntially. There are excpetions to every rule and a lot of people have success with out QT but I think it is risky. The QT tank should be a quiet area and lighting should not be too bright. I use 10 or 20G tanks, bare bottom with hang on back filters and small powerheads. I add a couple of pieces of Live rock and some PVC for the fish to hide in. The biggest thing to watch for is ammonia and nitrite in the QT so I do water changes every few days, depending on how heavily I feed the fish. I have lost fish in the QT process, but I believe that they may have died sooner had I added the to the display tank and then caused potential problems in the DT.
2) When I add fish to my display tank, I turn off the tank lights for an hour or so before I am going to add the fish. The current inhabitants are more subdued and it gives the new fish a chance to move around the tank with out being immediately attacked.
3) Try to pick fish that are not agressive if you are looking for a peaceful community tank. Damsels are great fish, very hardy but they are also very territorial and will chase/nip at most other fish, especially if they have already established a territory
4) I some times will rearrange the rock work to "confuse" the fish in my tank when adding a new fish if I think there will be some disputes. By changing the rocks work a bit, the fish sometimes will adjust to the new surroundings
5)generally, I only add one new fish at a time, depending on the species. Some times it may be better to add two at the same time if they are paired, etc.

Just some initial thoughts... others may agree/disagree and have their own deas