Ahhhh...if I only had 2500 pounds

[fraggel rock]

 

[george]

"Accepting live mysis only at present"

And another $2500/month to feed it.

 

[spike]

Can you believe it Georgia Aquarium paying as much as $1.00 per mysis. Then the sea dragons eat them like popcorn.

 

[steve]

Too bad they're illegal to import into the US.

 

[acroholic]

Too nice. I've wanted one of those since I saw them in exhibit at teh Tennessee Aquarium several years ago. Darn CITES! I'll get one when I get a Red Dragon Arowana, hehehe!

 

[steve]

Good luck with that one too acro.

 

[acroholic]

Steve;216559 wrote: Good luck with that one too acro.

Ya. You can buy them in Canada, but not here.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

CITES is an international law/restriction. What CITES law prohibits importation to the US, but not Canada?

 

[acroholic]

jmaneyapanda;216587 wrote: CITES is an international law/restriction. What CITES law prohibits importation to the US, but not Canada?

Asian Arowanas are being captive bred in Asia, and they have microchips implanted that identify them, I think. It is a US Law that restricts import into the US.

This probably explains it best (from Wikkipedia):

Conservation
The Asian arowanas are listed as

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Acroholic;216628 wrote: Asian Arowanas are being captive bred in Asia, and they have microchips implanted that identify them, I think. It is a US Law that restricts import into the US.

This probably explains it best (from Wikkipedia):

Conservation
The Asian arowanas are listed as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_species"><span style="color: #0000ff;">endangered</span></a> by the 2006 [IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Red_List"><span style="color: #0000ff;">IUCN Red List</span></a>, with the most recent evaluation taking place in 1996.[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_arowana#cite_note-Kottelat-0"><span style="color: #0000ff;">[1]</span></a> International trade in these fishes is controlled under the [IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_International_Trade_in_Endangered_Species_of_Wild_Flora_and_Fauna"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Flora and Fauna</span></a> (CITES), under which it was placed on Appendix I, the most restrictive category, in 1975.[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_arowana#cite_note-19"><span style="color: #0000ff;">[20]</span></a> [I]S. formosus</em> is one of only eight fish species listed on Appendix I.[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_arowana#cite_note-20"><span style="color: #0000ff;">[21]</span></a> There are a number of registered CITES breeders in Asia and the specimens they produce can be imported into several nations. Other nations restrict or prohibit possession of Asian arowanas; for example, the [IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States"><span style="color: #0000ff;">United States</span></a> has listed this species under the [IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_Species_Act"><span style="color: #0000ff;">Endangered Species Act</span></a>, and therefore it cannot be possessed in that country without a permit.[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_arowana#cite_note-21"><span style="color: #0000ff;">[22]</span></a>[/QUOTE]

Yeah, CITES appendix I makes it very difficult, but not impossible to get them. But it is equally difficult to get them to both USA and Canada. Difficult, but not impossible. I have gotten CITES I animals internationally for work, and it is a hassle I would wish on no one. Nonetheless, Canada can or would be no less stringent about impoortation of these animals than the US.

 

[acroholic]

jmaneyapanda;216638 wrote: Yeah, CITES appendix I makes it very difficult, but not impossible to get them. But it is equally difficult to get them to both USA and Canada. Difficult, but not impossible. I have gotten CITES I animals internationally for work, and it is a hassle I would wish on no one. Nonetheless, Canada can or would be no less stringent about impoortation of these animals than the US.

Take a look at this article. Like I said, I am not an expert, but I have been into freshwater for many years, and just knew thru reading on boards that you could get Asian Arowana in Canada. I go to Monsterfishkeepers.com, and there are many Canadian hobbyists there, and they talk about their Asian Arowanas quite a bit. This is common knowledge on the board. I don't believe the degree of difficulty is the same. Next to impossible in the US, but doable in Canada and Europe as well.

 

[acroholic]

Another example is certain aquarium plants. Tropica Aquarium Plants (http://www.tropica.com/default.asp">http://www.tropica.com/default.asp</a>) is located in the Netherlands, and they are the world's largest grower of aquarium plants, but you cannot buy them in the US. You can buy them in Canada, Europe, Asia, etc. And the reason is not CITES, but US Law, probably the Dept of Fish and Wildlife. They regulated importing when I imported and sold Discus. Tropica plants are grown in rockwool, that furry substance you see in the little black pots that many aquarium plants come in. Imported plants (referring to Aquarium plants) can only come into the US as bare rooted. Tropica refuses to ship bare rooted, so they are not present in the US market.

It is not the plants, but the rockwool that is the issue. It is considered soil under US law. It is what could be in the soil (bacteria, pathogens, etc) that is the basis for the US Law, not the plants. Plants grown in the US can be sold in rockwool pots, but no plants grown in rockwool/soil can be imported into the US.

The only Tropica plants you see in the US are ones that have probably gotten over the US/Canadian border and are now grown and sold as bare root clippings by plant tank keepers or US businesses.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Acroholic;216749 wrote: Another example is certain aquarium plants. Tropica Aquarium Plants (http://www.tropica.com/default.asp">http://www.tropica.com/default.asp</a>) is located in the Netherlands, and they are the world's largest grower of aquarium plants, but you cannot buy them in the US. You can buy them in Canada, Europe, Asia, etc. And the reason is not CITES, but US Law, probably the Dept of Fish and Wildlife. They regulated importing when I imported and sold Discus. Tropica plants are grown in rockwool, that furry substance you see in the little black pots that many aquarium plants come in. Imported plants (referring to Aquarium plants) can only come into the US as bare rooted. Tropica refuses to ship bare rooted, so they are not present in the US market.

It is not the plants, but the rockwool that is the issue. It is considered soil under US law. It is what could be in the soil (bacteria, pathogens, etc) that is the basis for the US Law, not the plants. Plants grown in the US can be sold in rockwool pots, but no plants grown in rockwool/soil can be imported into the US.

The only Tropica plants you see in the US are ones that have probably gotten over the US/Canadian border and are now grown and sold as bare root clippings by plant tank keepers or US businesses.[/QUOTE]

I can look into it, but I would guess you are looking at injurious flora and fauna then, which is USDA/APHIS. USFWS doesnt deal with plants. USDA is very strict about potential plant and ecologocial pathogens or problems. When I imported some animals from Japan, I needed to have notarized documents stating the bedding was made from certain types of wood that have been kiln cooked at certain temps for certain periods of time. But USFWS would not bar any plants.

I have to do a lot of international importing and exporting of wildlife for work, so I can assure you it is not impossible to import CITES I animals, and the "similar" hoops apply to all civilized nations.

 

[acroholic]

jmaneyapanda;216754 wrote: I have to do a lot of international importing and exporting of wildlife for work, so I can assure you it is not impossible to import CITES I animals, and the "similar" hoops apply to all civilized nations.

Not to argue, but there IS a difference between civilized nations regarding the importation of Asian Red Arowanas. If you don't believe me or the documentation I have already provided, look at this Official News Release from the US Fish And Wildlife Service:

http://www.fws.gov/news/newsreleases/r1/2B8FAF56-3DB1-4393-8058079C31E6DE85.html">http://www.fws.gov/news/newsreleases/r1/2B8FAF56-3DB1-4393-8058079C31E6DE85.html</a>

This is our government stating the same thing I have been saying, which quotes:

"<span style="font-family: Arial;">Wild populations of Asian arowana have severely declined, causing them to be listed as an Appendix I species under the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES). Trading of the wild fish is illegal. However, 23 CITES-registered breeding facilities in Asia are producing fish that can be exported for sale. These fish are legal to export to Canada and elsewhere, but not to the United States, where they are protected and the importation of either captive-bred or wild Asian arowana is prohibited."</span>
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[acroholic]

I believe the difference with the United States is that the US does not recognize the difference between the Farm Bred Asian Arowana and the Wild Caught Asian Arowana. The US lumps Wild Caught Asian Arowana and Farm Bred Asian Arowana into the same category, so because one is endangered, none can be imported, wether Wild Caught or Farm Bred. Whereas Canada does not allow Wild Asian Arowana to be imported, but DOES allow Farm Bred Asian Arowana to be legally imported.
Dave

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Im certainly not trying to argue either, but if it is CITES I, it makes no difference whatsoever if its captive or wild. Wild is typically illegal to collect, but in terms of the origin, it is not relative to the permits for import/export. The purpose for import/export is FAR more relevant.

BTW, my use of the word "civilized" was far too cavalier. I apologize. I simply meant to infer that there are counties where CITES laws are ignored because of government unrest.

I have discussed this EXACT issue with USFWS in Atlanta regularly (to the point where they know my face and name immediately), and trust me, the hoops to juump through for importation of CITESI is very rough, but not impossible.

 

[acroholic]

I can't really say much more than what the US Gov't. has stated. I just know that Canadian Hobbyists can import Farm Bred Asian Arowana legally as aquarium pets, whereas, per the USFWS statement, we in the US cannot.

Of course there are exceptions, like Public Aquariums and such, I would guess?
Dave

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Acroholic;216804 wrote: I can't really say much more than what the US Gov't. has stated. I just know that Canadian Hobbyists can import Farm Bred Asian Arowana legally as aquarium pets, whereas, per the USFWS statement, we in the US cannot.

Of course there are exceptions, like Public Aquariums and such, I would guess?
Dave

Ooops. I just reread what you wrote earlier, and it sounds like we are kinda saying the same thing. I can only really comment on what and how USFWS deal with CITES regualtions, not Canada. If they allow importation for pet purposes, I cannot disclaim that, but I am amazed. It is rather disturbng that they would "tempt" wild collection for pet trade (which is an inevitable outcome). Booo America junior (= Canada)!