Biopellet Bacteria Bloom Depleting Fish Oxygen, or Something Else?...HELP!!

[newbie20]

While at home for lunch today, I noticed that all of my fish seemed to be labored in their breathing, especially my Naso. I'd cut back on feedings the last couple of weeks to help address a Nitrate spike (40ppm++) resulting from a recent system consolidation. I thought perhaps they were starving, so I did a small feeding. All but the Naso were active in pursuing the food, but were definitely less vigorous than normal. I then immediately began to test the water, but found nothing of concern.

1.026 salinity
10ppm nitrate
0 nitrite
0 ammonia
76.5 degrees
PH 8

I even dropped by Nemo and had Simon test the water, and he found nothing of concern. The only thing a little out of whack was PH, which was low at 7.9, but nothing that would make the fish struggle the way they were. His test showed by Nitrate to be around 0ppm. So, that brought me to my conclusion, as I explain below.

While battling the nitrate issue, I decided to incorporate bio-pellets as an on-going way to control both the nitrate and phosphate levels of my setup. As recommended, I initally added 75g worth of pellets for my 150g system. That seemed fine, and I didn't detect a bacteria bloom. At the 10 day mark (last Sat), I added another 25g worth of pellets and incorporated MicroBacter based on various things I read on-line.

The last couple of days, the water seemed a little cloudy, but not as bad as what I would have expected a bacterial bloom to look like. It actually just seemed like my Vortechs were just stirring things up. However, in hindsight, the water has not been 100% clear since incorporating the biopellets, and I may have been missing the fact that a bacterial bloom was occuring, and i may have made it worse by not addressing it. When googling bacterial blooms effect on fish, the only thing I found was that they use up a lot of oxygen and could deprive the fish. This seemed to match what was going on in my tank.

Therefore, I had my wife run three aerators in the DT, and unplug the biopellet reactor until I could get home. Once home, the fish were still laboring, still the Naso being the worse off. His poor lips are continually opening and closing. I reduced the biopellet volume by half as instructed (so, probably around 50g worth of pellets now), added a fourth aerator to the sump, and began filtering RODI water in preparation for a large water change. Given the timeframe, I'm hoping to change 50g (about 30% when the sump is factored in). I've got about 35g mixed now, so I'm just waiting and watching the poor little guys until then. Not that I expect this to help much, but I'm also mixing in some Seachem Reef Buffer to get PH closer to 8.3.

So, based on what I've described, does my conclusion seem reasonable? If not, and given my test results, what else might be the cause of all fish laboring if it's not oxygen? If so, am I on the right track, or is there more I should be doing?

I've just passed a year in this hobby, and have been fortunate to have no losses other than some unfortunate jumping incidents. This is the first time my entire tank is "sick" and it's freaking me out. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[jdavid]

Brian, I can't say what is going on. I have no idea.

However, I think I know what I would do if I were you, given the info provided.

I would drop a capful of H2O2 in the sump. It will boost your oxygen levels.

What do you do if re-oxygenating becomes to frequent or simply cannot be preformed (have to leave)?
i. You can use hydrogen peroxide to re-oxygenate an aquarium – This is a risky procedure and should only be done if absolutely necessary!!! Use the water dumping method first!!
ii. You need to know the volume of your aquarium, and the approximate displacement by decorations, rocks, etc. IT IS CRITICAL THAT YOU DO NOT OVERDOSE THE AQUARIUM!! If you overdose the aquarium, the oxygen levels will skyrocket past saturation (super saturation) and possible kill if not seriously harm your fish and inverts. Corals and anemones are especially sensitive to super saturation. Overdosing can lead to gas bubble disease and oxidation of gill, fin, and skin tissues (similar in effect to an acid or alkali burn on humans - not cool).
iii. If you haven’t gotten the hint yet; DO NOT DO THIS EXCEPT AS A LAST RESORT!!! That means you are actually in the process of loosing animals, or the loss of animals is emanate. This is not something to fool around with, improper use or overdosing will kill animals, coral, anemones, bacteria, and anything else living in the aquarium.
1. Aquarium World does not make it a practice of providing this information, as every aquarium is unique, and dosages can vary. In light of the possible hurricane strike we thought it best to give our customers the tools necessary to survive an extended power outage. We are not responsible in any way for any loss incurred by using the following dosages as we do not know the actual loads or oxygen demand on your system. End of CYA statement -- folks; please be very careful doing this and start with low dosages before attempting a full dosage.
2. Proper dosage is 1 teaspoon of standard grocery/pharmacy grade hydrogen peroxide per each ten physical gallons of water in a properly maintained low oxygen demand system. There are technical ways to measure the oxygen demand, but they are beyond the abilities of almost all aquarists (requires lab equipment). WHAT THIS MEANS BEFORE YOU START DOSING
a. NOTES ON HOW TO BEST ESTIMATE YOUR OXYGEN DEMAND
i. Big Freshwater : If you have a 75 gallon aquarium (only really hold ~72 gallons of water) with 25 approx 3” African Cichlids and you do regular water changes (monthly) and only feed what the fish need, you would most likely have a low to moderate oxygen demand. You put ~75 lbs of gravel in the aquarium and 50 pound of rock and décor, so you probably displaced 5-10 more gallons of water. This means you are dosing for a maximum of 62 gallons – always error on the conservative side and overestimate displacement!!.
ii. Small Freshwater : If you have a 15 gallon aquarium (only really hold ~13 gallons of water) with 15 approx 1” Community fish and you do regular water changes (monthly) and only feed what the fish need, you would most likely have a low to moderate oxygen demand. You put ~15 lbs of gravel in the aquarium and 10 pound of rock and décor, so you probably displaced 2-3 more gallons of water. This means you are dosing for a maximum of 10 gallons – always error on the conservative side!!.
iii. Saltwater: Saltwater holds less oxygen so you are working at a deficit to start with. Look at your total tank volume do not include sumps as they are not working during a power failure. In reef and Fish tanks you will have to do a best guess on the amount of water your liverock and décor displaced – it is better to over estimate displacement (this will lower the total dose) – be careful! Dosage is the same 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons in a well maintained aquarium.
b. It is very difficult to estimate the oxygen demand for your aquarium, so error on the safe side and START WITH A HALF DOSAGE in a well maintained aquarium. START WITH A QUARTER DOSAGE in an aquarium that has not been properly maintained.
c. TO DOSE THE AQUARIUM use regular hydrogen peroxide from the grocery or pharmacy (you may have this in your medical supplies already). You will have to best guess your dosage based on tank volume on oxygen demand. We recommend starting with 1/4-1/2 dosage (1 teaspoon per 40 gallons= ¼ dose), then increase the dose if necessary by stepping up the dosage over treatments. Do not start with a full dose unless you really know what you are doing!
i. DOSING PROCEDURE:
ii. Start by aerating the aquarium using the water dump method for a minute to two minutes.
iii. Add your hydrogen peroxide to a pitcher full of water. Dump the mixture from 2-3 feet above the aquarium as you were doing before.
iv. Continue dump aerating for two more minutes to completely mix the oxygenated water throughout the aquarium. You do not want pockets of supersaturated water.
d. If you are dosing properly you should get oxygen saturation and won’t need to re-dose or water dump aerate for ~12 hours.
e. IF YOU OVERDOSE: The animals will start to dart about due to supersaturated oxygen levels – IMMEDIATELY AERATE USING THE WATER DUMP METHOD UNTIL THE ANIMALS STOP SHOWING DISTRESS.
f. If you started with a reduced dosage and notice that the animals show signs of oxygen depletion within a few hours, increase the next dosage by about 10%. Step the dosages up this way until you find a comfortable stable dose.

 

[tbub1221]

Seems you have doen what you can for now.
Good luck , I hope they all pull through


I did the above with H202 during a power outage this year lasted 7 hours everything did ok

 

[jdavid]

7 hours is not a long time to go without flow Terry, I have cut my pump off before work for that long when I didn't have enough time to top off

I do think it would be a good idea to under-dose, and buy some time

 

[containerman1]

Sounds like good info

 

[newbie20]

Thanks guys! If I'm reading the article correctly, it would appear I shouldn't have to do this. I've got a circulation pump, 2 Vortech MP40's, a skimmer, and 4 aerators all acting to oxygenate the water at the moment.

However, the fish are laboring, so perhaps the bacteria is still utilizing much of what I'm producing. Or, I wonder if it's possible that somehow the slimy residue created by the bacteria bloom is in the fish respiratory system.

I'll do the water change in a couple of hours, observe, then as the article says, dose H2o2 as a last resort.

Keep the suggestions coming!

 

[jdavid]

I'm thinking and researching

Edit: Could it be stray voltage?

Edit: Are your fish scraping or rubbing off objects in the tank?

Do your fish have eyes which appear cloudy or glazed over?

Does your fish have one or more fluffy white growths on it? Do they look like cotton balls?

Does your fish have a growth that resembles a cauliflower?

Do any of your fish have fins that appear frayed or have white edges?

Do your fish appear wounded or injured in any way?

 

[newbie20]

JDavid;911946 wrote: I'm thinking and researching

Edit: Could it be stray voltage?<span style="color: red"> Low chance, but I'll break out the volt meter and see what I discover. Actually had it once before due to a bad heater, so I replaced both heaters. At that time, it didn't affect the whole tank, but the area around the heater was avoided, or the fish shot by it quickly when they were in the area. Saw that stray voltage was a possible cause of HLLE in tangs, and the tang at the time appeared to be getting a more noticeable lateral line. </span>

Edit: Are your fish scraping or rubbing off objects in the tank? <span style="color: red">Not that I've seen. Why?</span>

Do your fish have eyes which appear cloudy or glazed over? <span style="color: red">No</span>

Does your fish have one or more fluffy white growths on it? Do they look like cotton balls? <span style="color: red">No</span>

Does your fish have a growth that resembles a cauliflower? <span style="color: red">No</span>

Do any of your fish have fins that appear frayed or have white edges? <span style="color: red">No</span>

Do your fish appear wounded or injured in any way?

<span style="color: red"> No. The only physical sign of distress other than the labored breathing is the Naso's belly is whitish in color, which I think is a common sign of stress. At least that's what happens to my Regal when it's stressed.</span>

Edit: The more I sit here and watch all of the water motion going on in the tank, the less I'm thinking it has to do with oxygenation. But, I really do think it has something to do with the bacterial bloom. The last two nights, my filters socks were clogged within one day, I believe from the residue. Additionally, when cleaning the glass, the inside scrubber kept slipping off. Again, I'm guessing due to the residue. I wonder if I over-accelerated things by incorporating MicroBacter and more biobellets at the same time.

Maybe my 50 gallon water change will make a noticeable difference. Fingers crossed.

 

[jdavid]

All of those questions are what the troubleshooter for labored breathing that I found asks. If you answer no to everyone, it just brings you back to the beginning where it's says you have low dissolved oxygen or your tank is cycling.

Seeing that Simon checked your water as well that rules out a number of things, like your salinity being too high. (Could be that the refractor enter is not calibrated, etc)

I think you are probably right about the biopellet bacteria bloom, at least, according to everything I just read in the past 20 minutes.

You might want to try bringing the SG down .002-.003 with the water change. That could help with oxygen levels as well, and I think that every little bit should help

However, if you do not over saturate oxygen in your tank, which I think may be impossible with a single capful of h2o2 in the sump twice a day, it could prevent any losses

Edit: Also did you check the temp?

 

[newbie20]

Good idea on salinity, I'll do that. Temp has been around 76.5 degrees.

 

[ripped tide]

I haven't read everyone's replies, but have you tested the ORP?

The ORP can tell you a lot when it comes to dissolved oxygen. When I ran biopellets, I saw similar drops in oxygen. the ORP got scary low. That was on a half dose. I didn't add more pellets until they had been running for a while.

That water change will do you good. Also, what kind of skimmer do you have?

Edit: Do not add any more buffer with out testing your alk. The buffer is good if your alk is low, but if it is currently balanced with your ca, you'll cause an imbalance.

Your pH is likely low due to low O2 levels

Running carbon? If so, put new in. If not, put some in.

 

[newbie20]

Ripped Tide;911960 wrote: I haven't read everyone's replies, but have you tested the ORP? <span style="color: red">I've not tested for ORP, nor do I know how without a controller. Are there test kits?</span>

The ORP can tell you a lot when it comes to dissolved oxygen. When I ran biopellets, I saw similar drops in oxygen. the ORP got scary low. That was on a half dose. I didn't add more pellets until they had been running for a while. <span style="color: red">That might be where I am now. So, maybe JDavid's H2o2 dosing is necessary at this point?</span>

That water change will do you good. Also, what kind of skimmer do you have? <span style="color: red">Superskimmer 220. Not high end, but seems to do a decent job when I've got it tuned in. Pulling gunk now.</span>

Edit: Do not add any more buffer with out testing your alk. The buffer is good if your alk is low, but if it is currently balanced with your ca, you'll cause an imbalance.

Your pH is likely low due to low O2 levels

Running carbon? If so, put new in. If not, put some in.

<span style="color: red"> Not currently running Carbon. Read not to with a bio-pellet reactor. I took out the mesh filter bag with the carbon and it's dried in a bucket now. Can I simply put it back in?</span>

 

[ripped tide]

I have always run high end carbon with biopellets- when I ran them. They ended up being more trouble than they were worth, IMO. (I think you'll understand what I am talking about when you finally take them off)

I would not run the full load on the super skimmer. That is where your issue is coming from. Your skimmer is not efficient enough to quickly remove the excess bacteria caused by the bloom. The super skimmers don't have a great air flow:water ratio. If you want to continue running pellets, I would suggest a more efficient skimmer that has a better air:water ratio.

I don't really mess with h202 unless I am trying to kill things. Lol. Not saying it won't work- I have limited experience using it to keep things alive. . It is an oxidizer, and the issue you are having could be remedied with this(I guess) but it will only be a temporary quick fix.

The only way to test ORP that I know of is with using a controller or monitor.



Again, that water change is your best bet, IMO.

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70974&highlight=biopellets">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70974&highlight=biopellets</a>

Here is a write up I did on my run with BP. It's dated, now.

I've since gone back to gfo

 

[newbie20]

Thanks! Water change commencing.

 

[ripped tide]

Good luck! Everything should come out alright. When I had the final bloom that made me decide to get rid of the pellets, I had a similar situation. I pulled the pellets off, loaded a reactor with carbon, Did a big change, and all was well.... except an acro or two that rtn'd as a result of the bloom.

 

[ralph atl]

I would do a 50% water change at the exact same salinity, move air stones in, and change carbon & gfo, remove pellets asap.....

 

[newbie20]

Water change complete. Fish still laboring. Put less than 1/4 of recommended full H2o2 dose in tank in hopes of safely oxygenating until bloom has subsided. Heading to bed and hoping for the best. Doubt I'll get much sleep.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[newbie20]

No losses this morning, and there seems to be a little more activity, though the fish, at least the tangs, are still laboring. As I was tossing and turning last night, I realized that I probably exacerbated the bloom and it's impact on the oxygen level when I turned off my skimmer while using the Microbacter (as is instructed). I'm no expert, but given what I know about biopellets, not skimming during a bloom is probably the last thing you want to do. Also, I think I'll put the Microbacter regimen on hold, especially given that it seems my nitrates are now manageable.

I dosed another small amount of H2o2 this morning, and the skimmer has pulled about a quarter skimmer cup's worth of grime. I know that blooms die off rather quickly, so I'm hopeful I can keep everything alive until then.

Wanted to provide an update in the event there are more members of the audience this morning that may continue to add to the terrific advice I've already received. Thanks again to everyone that's offered input.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

In increasing an aerobic bacterial population (by adding the biopellets), yes, you are going to eat into the O2 availability elsewhere. There are dissolved Oxygen meters which can measure this, but if all else checks out, thats a distinct possibility. Im not sure dosing h2o2 will be a "solution", rather than a diagnostic bandaid.

Also, ORP really isnty a good measure of oxygen content at all. It measures the biochemical "activity", not oxygen levels.

 

[newbie20]

jmaneyapanda;911999 wrote: In increasing an aerobic bacterial population (by adding the biopellets), yes, you are going to eat into the O2 availability elsewhere. There are dissolved Oxygen meters which can measure this, but if all else checks out, thats a distinct possibility. Im not sure dosing h2o2 will be a "solution", rather than a diagnostic bandaid.

Also, ORP really isnty a good measure of oxygen content at all. It measures the biochemical "activity", not oxygen levels.

Thanks. So, any solutions other than the current bandaid method I've employed? Now that I've reduced the biopellets, and resumed skimming, do you think that the oxygen level will begin to rise given the normal circulation of the system (assuming the bloom dies off)?