Bulb age/PAR reduction... and you heard it was just spectrum shift?

cr500_af

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First, YES, I know with the different bulbs we are not comparing apples to apples... however, the numbers are so massively different that we are comparing apples to hay balers.

Background: My frag tank (housing Rob's corals, mostly) had T5s, 4x24w HO to be exact, on it. The corals were showing signs of light deprivation (browning, etc) so we decided to test it, and the numbers were so bad (even with new bulbs AND ballasts... 150 PAR at the surface) that we decided to throw a 250w MH up there and get these things back where they should be.

The frag tank is 18x24x12. The T5s were right on the rim; the MH was installed so that the bulb was 6" from the surface, 12" from the frag rack and 16" from the bottom. For the math-impaired, that means the water is 10" deep and the frag rack is 4" off the bottom. :) )

Sooooo, we installed a Lumen-something (I can't keep them straight) reflector, and an IceCap 250w ballast. We brought from his house three bulbs... an IceCap 10KK (nearly new), an XM 20KK (old, but exact unkown) and a "Reef Grow" 15KK, same as the XM.

The results from the three bulbs was eye-opening. Yes, I know the lower K bulbs make more PAR as a rule... but the age obviously made a HUGE difference.

Bulb one:
IceCap 10KK: Surface 700, frag rack 600, bottom 300.

Bulb two:
XM 20KK: Surface 350, frag rack 180, bottom 70

Bulb three:
Reef Grow 15KK: Surface 300, further testing abandoned.

So, I realize that the bulbs were all different, but the PAR numbers are so different that I'd have to blame it 90% on age, since we were unable to test a new/old bulb of the same brand for a control.

I only post this as a kind of public service... I had always been told that old bulbs experience "spectrum shift", but I've never read or been told that they lose massive amounts of PAR production.

Am I off base in my conclusion from this? Am I right that it seems to be far more age than brand/temp that contributes to this? I mean, if a 10K really produced twice the PAR of a 20K, we'd all be enjoying our yellowish light and brownish corals, right?
 
Hard to compare certain halide bulbs to others. I don't think XM 20ks are known for their PAR. I'd like to see you test a Radium 20K on that rig. I have an older one you are welcome to borrow anytime. On my 400 watt CoralVue ballsts, an EVC 20K bulb was giving 780 PAR one inch below the water surface, while a Radium 20K was giving 1260 in the same spot.

If my only choice in keeping corals was 10K light, I don't think I'd own a reef.
 
Assault;523703 wrote: Are there any T5s with PAR comparable to MH lighting, I have 400w HQIs, but really want to go with T5s and keep my electric bill down
pm'ed
 
Icecap 250 watt ballast, large lumenbright reflector and radium 20k with bulb 16 inches over the water. 900 at the surface and 500 6 inches deep.Bulbs are 2 months old. Rob checked the frag tank at the store when he came by. Since I run a light mover this was directly under the bulb. When the mover was at its farthest point away it would drop to around 90. Lights move 3 ft between stops.

Rob is the pied piper of par readings :up:
 
http://chrismorris.ca/250wcolour/">http://chrismorris.ca/250wcolour/</a>

Look at the drastic difference in PAR numbers when comparing 10k to 20k side by side.. Its insane..
 
cr500_af;523682 wrote: First, YES, I know with the different bulbs we are not comparing apples to apples... however, the numbers are so massively different that we are comparing apples to hay balers.

Background: My frag tank (housing Rob's corals, mostly) had T5s, 4x24w HO to be exact, on it. The corals were showing signs of light deprivation (browning, etc) so we decided to test it, and the numbers were so bad (even with new bulbs AND ballasts... 150 PAR at the surface) that we decided to throw a 250w MH up there and get these things back where they should be.

The frag tank is 18x24x12. The T5s were right on the rim; the MH was installed so that the bulb was 6" from the surface, 12" from the frag rack and 16" from the bottom. For the math-impaired, that means the water is 10" deep and the frag rack is 4" off the bottom. :) )

Sooooo, we installed a Lumen-something (I can't keep them straight) reflector, and an IceCap 250w ballast. We brought from his house three bulbs... an IceCap 10KK (nearly new), an XM 20KK (old, but exact unkown) and a "Reef Grow" 15KK, same as the XM.

The results from the three bulbs was eye-opening. Yes, I know the lower K bulbs make more PAR as a rule... but the age obviously made a HUGE difference.

Bulb one:
IceCap 10KK: Surface 700, frag rack 600, bottom 300.

Bulb two:
XM 20KK: Surface 350, frag rack 180, bottom 70

Bulb three:
Reef Grow 15KK: Surface 300, further testing abandoned.

So, I realize that the bulbs were all different, but the PAR numbers are so different that I'd have to blame it 90% on age, since we were unable to test a new/old bulb of the same brand for a control.

I only post this as a kind of public service... I had always been told that old bulbs experience "spectrum shift", but I've never read or been told that they lose massive amounts of PAR production.

Am I off base in my conclusion from this? Am I right that it seems to be far more age than brand/temp that contributes to this? I mean, if a 10K really produced twice the PAR of a 20K, we'd all be enjoying our yellowish light and brownish corals, right?

IMO there is no way to draw that conclusion since you don't have data as to the output of the last two bulbs while they were new as well for comparison.
As far as 10k versus 20k there are actually some 20k's that will outperform certain 10k bulbs with certain ballast. I don't think that it is a big secret that 10ks on average will put out more par bur so would a 6500.
 
Here is a link to an analysis done by Sanjay Joshi as to regards output of mh bulbs with age.
a>
 
DrNecropolis;523714 wrote: No wonder.. Did you think a 20k was going to produce anywhere close to the numbers of a 10k?

hahahaha

No, but I expected the 15K and the 20K to beat a cheap fixture with 96 watts of T5. Wouldn't you?
 
DrNecropolis;523715 wrote: http://chrismorris.ca/250wcolour/">http://chrismorris.ca/250wcolour/</a>

Look at the drastic difference in PAR numbers when comparing 10k to 20k side by side.. Its insane..[/QUOTE]

ushio 10k on a magnetic m59 ballast ppfd 128
xm 20k on the same ballast ppfd 128


pretty close to the same:)
 
That's one example.. Compare the monster numbers of that 6500 and a 20k..


Good point about the T5's B-Minus..
 
DrNecropolis;523904 wrote: That's one example.. Compare the monster numbers of that 6500 and a 20k..


Good point about the T5's B-Minus..

And don't you have something to pick up from me like 4 days ago??
 
grouper therapy;523839 wrote: IMO there is no way to draw that conclusion since you don't have data as to the output of the last two bulbs while they were new as well for comparison.
As far as 10k versus 20k there are actually some 20k's that will outperform certain 10k bulbs with certain ballast. I don't think that it is a big secret that 10ks on average will put out more par bur so would a 6500.

Agreed totally... I just didn't expect the old bulbs to be SOOO bad.
 
Well, if you're getting good growth, that means you are getting acceptable PAR numbers... so it comes down to preference. MH put off a little more heat but look incredible. T5s give you lower temps and almost infinite color combinations (which may be a curse rather than a blessing depending on how much you end up spending on bulbs :) )
 
DrNecropolis;523904 wrote: That's one example.. Compare the monster numbers of that 6500 and a 20k..


Good point about the T5's B-Minus..

No doubt on the average the the lower the kelvin rating the more par but my point is that you can have what some perceive as a blue bulb and not sacrifice par.
 
cr500_af;523858 wrote: No, but I expected the 15K and the 20K to beat a cheap fixture with 96 watts of T5. Wouldn't you?

Last week I have seen some new 400 watt Radium 20k bulbs that had the same pitiful par number as the last two you tested . All it took was a new capacitor for the ballast and now they are out performing some Aqualine 10k's.
Barry are those electronic Icecap ballast suppose to be tuned for different type bulbs?
 
grouper therapy;523951 wrote: Last week I have seen some new 400 watt Radium 20k bulbs that had the same pitiful par number as the last two you tested . All it took was a new capacitor for the ballast and now they are out performing some Aqualine 10k's.
Barry are those electronic Icecap ballast suppose to be tuned for different type bulbs?

You know, Dave, I don't know much about those. This was stuff from Rob's stash that we put on last night. I can look at the ballast and do a little reading, and post some info tonight.
 
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