CA reactor set up question

demifelix

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I'm planning to set up my CA reactor since I have a lot of SPS nowadays and don't want to keep dosing. I went through my box for MRC CR2 and found everything I need except that the bubble counter is broken. I never hooked the CA reactor up since I bought it so I don't know how to use it exactly, but as I was going thru Acroholic's sticky on this topic, I realized that I need the bubble counter for initial set up but then everything else is measured based on the effluent rate (if I understand it correctly).

So, the question is: Do I absolutely need to get a bubble counter? Can I get away with that and still be able to get the CA reactor going? If I have to get the bubble counter, where is the best place to get one?
 
Felix,
A bubble counter is a nice thing to have, since it is an at-a-glance type thing, but it is not necessary to get the reactor up and going. I will assume you are feeding into the reactor where the CO2 is pulled into the recirculation pump, as most reactors are designed this way. Once set up with bubbles going, you should be able to "hear" the bubbles as they are broken up by the recirculation pump impeller. You can use this to count the bubbles, but ultimately, for convenience sake, you might want to add a bubble counter when you can.

And prior to getting the reactor filled with water and going and attain the CO2 line to the reactor itself, you can set the bubble rate prior to that by just holding the CO2 line under some water to get an initial bubble rate of around 60 bubbles/minute. You just don't want to have an initial flood of CO2 into the reactor when you start it up.
 
Thanks Dave. That's a good idea. After I posted my question I thought about the entire solenoid thing again. It's a Milwaukee brand and used condition and the bubble counter is broken, so I wonder if it's a better idea to just get a new one. If so, should I go with Milwaukee again or should I use another brand? Is Milwaukee reliable? Also, I have dual chambers, so should I fill both chambers with coarse media, or the first chamber with coarse and second chamber with small media?
 
You can use the Milwaukee regulator if it works. I don't necessarily like telling folks to spend money, but the aquarium plants.com Carbondoser regulator is pretty much considered the best regulator for calcium reactors. I have one, and it is great. It releases CO2 via an electronic valve, instead of a needle valve. I think it basically allows a bit more precise control of the bubble rate, as it is controlled via a rheostat type dial, and not a physical needle valve.

And you can use any type bubble counter, one reef specific or one for planted tanks, does;t matter. Just use a good check valve in-between the bubble counter/reactor and the regulator. aquariumplants.com has all this equipment and they hare having a black friday sale as well today.

If you have a dual chamber reactor, I would use standard size media in at least one of them. IME, with the large media, CO2 is not trapped very long, and gas can start circulating too freely around the reactor.

I have the Carbondoser on my 465 gallon, but I use a regular old JBJ regulator on my 100 gallon mixed reef, as I don't think the extra accuracy of the carbondoser is really needed for a mixed setup.
 
Thanks Dave. Do you know why there are 2 chambers in this model? Just to hold twice the amount of media so more Ca, Alk, and Mg can be added to larger systems?
 
demifelix;999205 wrote: Thanks Dave. Do you know why there are 2 chambers in this model? Just to hold twice the amount of media so more Ca, Alk, and Mg can be added to larger systems?

Yup....2 chambers holds more media, and the second media chamber kicks up the pH of the effluent before it hits the display tank water, and it will release more Ca, Mag and bicarbonates. I assume your reactor is recirculation in the first chamber, and a single pass through in the second?
 
Yes it is Dave if I understand you correctly. There's a small tubing from the top of the 1st chamber (where the recir pump first pumps water and CO2 into that chamber) that connects to the bottom of the 2nd chamber. From this design, it looks like the effluent from the 1st chamber is very low pH since it just got mixed with the incoming CO2.

So, now I understand how this works conceptually, that leads me to another question: how do we control the solenoid using Reefkeeper elite? Should we have the RKE monitors the pH and turn on the solenoid when pH is low and turn off when pH reaches desirable level, or should the solenoid be put on timer to run during the day time and off during night time to avoid pH swings? or should the entire CA reactor be run 24/7 regardless? What's the best way to achieve ultimate stability? I have been dosing for months now and everything is so stable and I don't want to risk anything by doing something silly with my CA reactor.
 
demifelix;999211 wrote: Yes it is Dave if I understand you correctly. There's a small tubing from the top of the 1st chamber (where the recir pump first pumps water and CO2 into that chamber) that connects to the bottom of the 2nd chamber. From this design, it looks like the effluent from the 1st chamber is very low pH since it just got mixed with the incoming CO2.

So, now I understand how this works conceptually, that leads me to another question: how do we control the solenoid using Reefkeeper elite? Should we have the RKE monitors the pH and turn on the solenoid when pH is low and turn off when pH reaches desirable level, or should the solenoid be put on timer to run during the day time and off during night time to avoid pH swings? or should the entire CA reactor be run 24/7 regardless? What's the best way to achieve ultimate stability? I have been dosing for months now and everything is so stable and I don't want to risk anything by doing something silly with my CA reactor.

You should have a pH probe port in the reactor lid to monitor the pH inside the first chamber (recirculation pump chamber). I have an RKE as well. You set the PC4 outlet the CO2 solenoid is hooked up to act as a controller, then tie the controller to the SL1 or SL2 module the reactor pH probe is connected to, and have it energize when the pH is above whatever setpoint you choose. 6.5 is a good start point, then set the hysteresis to .01 or .02. You add CO2 when the pH is above the setpoint, and it cuts off when the pH goes below the setpoint. The smaller your hysteresis, the narrower your control parameters, so the more stable the alkalinity of the tank should be.

In regards to what is running 24/7, everything is, meaning there is always effluent going through the reactor, the recirculation pump is always on, and the RKE is controlling the CO2 gas 24/7, turning it on or off as needed, according to the pH of the inside of the calcium reactor.

Read these cut 'n pastes from another thread I just commented in, as it applies to your setup as well:
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The main difference, cost aside, between calcium reactors and dosing, and the factor that I think makes calcium reactors a good choice, is when you are dissolving media, you are dissolving and releasing not only bicarbonates and calcium, but also magnesium, and trace elements as they were laid down by the corals that originally took them up before they became reactor media, so you have all three: bicarbonate, calcium, and magnesium, and proper traces released in the proper proportions in a calcium reactor setup. It costs a bit more initially, but the cost evens out over a couple years. Manual dosing does not provide that in an all in one type setup, just bicarbonate and calcium.
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Once you have the reactor dialed in, you don't have to do a lot to it. Main thing is to ensure a consistent flow rate of about 60 ml/ min through the reactor (give or take), then use a bubble rate of one bubble CO2 per second (50-60 per minute), then set a reactor pH set point of 6.5 or so to start, then monitor your KH according to your goals and adjust the pH set point up or down accordingly. The above settings are not in stone, but are a good starting point and what is usually recommended by reactor manufacturers as starting points as well.

Main thing is to understand the relationship between pH set point and system KH. The lower the reactor set point, the more CO2 will be bubbled into the reactor, and the more bicarbonates, Ca and Mag will be released as the media is dissolved at a faster rate, the higher the reactor set point, the opposite happens.

For example, if you want to keep a system KH of 9, and at your above settings, over a couple weeks your KH goes down to 8, then you lower the pH set point of the reactor to 6.4 from 6.5, which bubbles more CO2 into the reactor, dissolving more media and releasing more bicarbonates, thereby raising the KH of the system. If your system KH rises to 10, then you might raise the reactor pH set point to 6.6, which means less CO2 goes into the reactor, dissolving less media and releasing less bicarbonates, thereby lowering the KH of the system.

Flow rate (effluent rate) and bubble rate can be adjusted, but the ranges I gave for those should work for most systems. I have just found it easier to mess with one parameter at a time, and reactor set point works the best, IME. Also it is better for someone new to calcium reactors to only play with one variable until you get some experience.

But definitely know what happens chemically to your reactor, the media, and your water column in general before setting up and starting operation of a calcium reactor.

Your reactor media dissolves very slowly, and generally you should not have to refill for a couple years, or until you deplete half the media. A lot really depends on the demand of your system. SPS systems show small demand whey you have tiny frags, of course, and demand increases as they grow. Far less demand from an LPS dominant system, IME.

Main thing IME is to monitor KH, as calcium and magnesium levels usually fall in line at a properly maintained in range KH level. I keep mine at 9, with a general range of 7-12 bring the range recommended by Randy Holmes Farley. The middle of that seems a good place to be.
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That's helpful, Dave. Deep down I've known a ca reactor is better for my growing frag setup but admittedly it's all a bit over my head. That clears some things up for me...
 
I don't remember seeing the pH probe holder in the 1st chamber, but I'll check it when I get back home on Sunday. So, let's say there's no place to insert the pH probe in the 1st chamber, is there anything I can do? Can I mod the lid in order to be able to insert the pH probe in there?
 
demifelix;999270 wrote: I don't remember seeing the pH probe holder in the 1st chamber, but I'll check it when I get back home on Sunday. So, let's say there's no place to insert the pH probe in the 1st chamber, is there anything I can do? Can I mod the lid in order to be able to insert the pH probe in there?
A probe port can be added to a reactor lid, but the lid needs a hole drilled and tapped (threaded). You might check with SEA to see if they or MRC could do that for you.

Another way of dealing with no pH probe port is to use a small hang on container, like a small Lee's Specimen Container you can put in your sump. Have the effluent from the reactor go into the container, then spill from that into the sump. Place the reactor pH probe in the specimen container. Adjust the reactor set point to 6.6-6.7 or so in that situation to start, as the effluent pH in the specimen container will probably be a bit higher at the exit point from the second media chamber, and lower in the first chamber you cannot actually measure if you do not have a probe port.

Either way will work. What brand is your calcium reactor? All the reactors I have owned have had probe ports, but I only have owned GEO calcium reactors.
 
No problem Felix......since it is MRC you should not have an issue getting a port added.
 
Thanks Dave. Since you are also using RKE, I'll probably need your help setting up the PC4/SL1 correctly so it will work the way it's supposed to. I think I need to pay you a visit anyway to get some ideas and inspiration just by looking at your tank. What do you think Dave?
 
demifelix;999382 wrote: Thanks Dave. Since you are also using RKE, I'll probably need your help setting up the PC4/SL1 correctly so it will work the way it's supposed to. I think I need to pay you a visit anyway to get some ideas and inspiration just by looking at your tank. What do you think Dave?

No problem Felix, just shoot me a PM.
 
Dave wrote a great thread that's sticky'd in the reef discussion forum too!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ghbrewer;999527 wrote: Yeah, just as good, I just liked seeing it in an active discussion.

Completely agree, but there's some info there that hadn't been discussed yet and wanted to throw out a general reference for anyone following the thread.
 
Dave wrote an awesome sticky and that's how I started, but then I got overwhelmed with all the inputs and got distracted :). I still go back to that thread reading all the posts piece by piece whenever I have down time. Just so much information packed in there. I think once I start getting it going then some of the discussions will become more relevant to me then.
 
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