Controlling nitrates...opinions please

[reeferkeifer]

I understand that this can be a tough one to control. I checked my parameters last week just before my 25 gallon water change and substrate vac and my nitrates were at about 40ppm and have been for several months. No fish have died or started acting weird, no significant algea growth but I have noticed that my Hippo Tank is loosing some color around the face/eyes. It also has what appear to scratches on its tail on both sides. Refer to pic. I can't get a good pic of the lack of color on its face. I read that it could be due to diet or poor parameters. All other parameters are normal except nitrates. I feed my tank once a day during the week and 2x's per day on the weekend. I mix up there diet between dried brine shrimp, new life spectrum pellets, omega one garlic and veggie flakes, frozen LRS fish and herbivore frenzy and frozen mysis shrimp. I let the frozen food thaw a few minutes before feeding. I also put a few drops of Continuum garlic with the frozen food while thawing. I do give nori but slacked off to only giving it once a week. I am going to start giving the nori every day in the am. My tank cleaning schedule is every 2 weeks I do a 20-25 gal water change, vac the substrate, keep my salinity around 1.20-1.22 and scrape and wipe the glass. I do have 3 filter socks and those get changed out every 2-3 weeks. I think I am going to change the socks every week. I don't feel I over feed and I think I have good husbandry skills, at least my wife tells me so. What is ya'lls opinion? Could the high nitrates be the culprit or the lack of seaweed in the fish's diet? I have a 90 gallon fowler with a current orbit LED light, 2 power heads with a combined flow rate of 2650 gph and a Vertex Omega 150.

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[fishdude]

40ppm doesn't sound crazy to me in a FOWLR tank. A 25% water change would put you around 30ppm, which should be ok. If you are only having issues with the Hippo I would focus on diet.
-Nick

 

[crew]

Fishdude;1035341 wrote: 40ppm doesn't sound crazy to me in a FOWLR tank. A 25% water change would put you around 30ppm, which should be ok. If you are only having issues with the Hippo I would focus on diet.
-Nick

Agreed - I wouldn't worry about nitrates until you get into the 80-100ppm range in a fowlr tank. Nitrates are more of a problem for coral and not fish. Not that these are the exact problem, but the things that jumped out to me are your salinity being slightly low and changing filter socks every 2-3 weeks. My guess would be the filter socks are your nitrate source and the salinity could be the issue with coloration. Hope you can fix your problem

 

[reeferkeifer]

What salinity seems appropriate? My meter reads that 1.20 - 1.26 is optimal range.

 

[franciscosalazar]

Hydrometer or Refractometer?

 

[crew]

You're going to get a ton of different opinions on salinity, but the ocean is 1.026 and that's what I shoot for. SW fish simply aren't built to handle anything much different than that for extended periods.

Also, if you aren't using a calibrated refractometer, there is a very good chance that your salinity isn't what you think it is. I've seen hydrometers off by as much as .010, meaning your salinity could be anywhere from 1.012 to 1.032, which would definitely explain the color issues.

 

[jvb89]

If your not having nuisance algae issues personally I wouldn't worry about it too much. But if your worried about the levels or have the algae issues you could always throw a bio-pellet reactor on the system that is relatively inexpensive and pretty much a set it and forget it once dialed in.

 

[reeferkeifer]

franciscosalazar;1035354 wrote: Hydrometer or Refractometer?

Hydrometer

 

[franciscosalazar]

ReeferKeifer;1035378 wrote: Hydrometer

I'd recommend verifying its accuracy.

 

[jennm]

Your tang is showing early signs of HLLE (Head and Lateral Line Erosion.)

The most recent research suggests a major cause is carbon fines - so if you are running carbon, make sure you are using a high quality carbon and rinse it well.

I personally, still subscribe to the notion that diet and water quality have something to do with it also, and the nitrate at that level can aggravate it. You need to address this now while it's still reversible or you'll end up with a scarred fish. I've rehabilitated many HLLE fish, but they never heal completely if it goes on for too long.

Long term exposure to high nitrates erodes gill tissue too. So if you're OK with shortening the fishes' lifespans, then carry on. Think of it like smoking... except the fish don't have a choice, and people do

IMO either cut your feeding some, or step up your water changes in frequency - ideally do both at least until you get the nitrates under control.

Some think it's no big deal but I have seen way too many fish suffer because of poor water quality. There's no excuse for it.

What test kit are you using? Not all kits are equal or accurate.

I personally don't see a problem with your specific gravity. It's well within acceptable parameters and a bit on the lower side of normal is less stressful on the fishes' kidneys as they are constantly working to excrete salt. While the average in the ocean is 1.026 (and 1.027 in the Red Sea), that's an average, and it does vary somewhat, especially in estuaries and such.

Do address the nitrate because if it climbed to where it is now, over time, it will continue to climb if unchecked, and one day it will just be too much for the fish to take. Meanwhile, their gills will erode, and that's not good.

Jenn

 

[reeferkeifer]

JennM;1035452 wrote: Your tang is showing early signs of HLLE (Head and Lateral Line Erosion.)

The most recent research suggests a major cause is carbon fines - so if you are running carbon, make sure you are using a high quality carbon and rinse it well.

I personally, still subscribe to the notion that diet and water quality have something to do with it also, and the nitrate at that level can aggravate it. You need to address this now while it's still reversible or you'll end up with a scarred fish. I've rehabilitated many HLLE fish, but they never heal completely if it goes on for too long.

Long term exposure to high nitrates erodes gill tissue too. So if you're OK with shortening the fishes' lifespans, then carry on. Think of it like smoking... except the fish don't have a choice, and people do

IMO either cut your feeding some, or step up your water changes in frequency - ideally do both at least until you get the nitrates under control.

Some think it's no big deal but I have seen way too many fish suffer because of poor water quality. There's no excuse for it.

What test kit are you using? Not all kits are equal or accurate.

I personally don't see a problem with your specific gravity. It's well within acceptable parameters and a bit on the lower side of normal is less stressful on the fishes' kidneys as they are constantly working to excrete salt. While the average in the ocean is 1.026 (and 1.027 in the Red Sea), that's an average, and it does vary somewhat, especially in estuaries and such.

Do address the nitrate because if it climbed to where it is now, over time, it will continue to climb if unchecked, and one day it will just be too much for the fish to take. Meanwhile, their gills will erode, and that's not good.

Jenn

I do not run carbon. Just a skimmer and Emperor Aquatics 40 watt UV sterilizer. Also, I treated my Emperor Angelfish with PraziPro starting last Monday night and just retreated the tank last night (day 3). It appears to slowly be working and I am not running my skimmer or UV since Monday night. Hopefully it clears up so I can kick stuff back on soon.

I plan to clean my skimmer good this weekend as well. I am going to start feeding a small square of LRS brand nori every day as I was not before and I am going to start changing my filter socks every week. My foxface and hippo go nuts for nori. What should I cut my feeding to? Every other day and maintain that schedule forever or just until nitrates balance? What do you think about the food I am using?

Would you say I need to do a 20-25 gallon water change every week at this point until my nitrates go down? All other parameters are checking perfect. I use API Saltwater master Test Kit and Seachem multitest phosphate kit. I am also seeing a little green hair algea grow on a few of my rocks and that is growing very slowly as I have seen it for a while. I plan to take a clean toothbrush and knock it off. Also, I do not have a refugium or those plastic balls in the sump.

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[reeferkeifer]

I also use RODI water from my Typhoon

 

[snowmansnow]

I suppose rogue salinity could stress things to the point of disease. If you're using a swing hydrometer it may be worth taking your water in to a lfs to test. Just my thought


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[jennm]

I missed it somewhere, but what size is the tank? EDIT - never mind I see... 90 gallon.

LRS is good food - all of it.

That test kit is junk. Before we hit the panic button, get a better nitrate kit (get all better test kits, for that matter, but nitrate goes bad on API and shows crazy high readings when they don't exist). I'm a fan of Seachem, it's inexpensive, easy and comes with a reference solution so you can tell if it's accurate or not. Red Sea or Salifert are good too.

Still, given what you said you are feeding and the infrequency of water changes, it's probably likely that nitrates are higher than they ought to be, and the starting bit of HLLE supports that in my opinion.

My baseline recommendation for water changes on a system with good parameters is 10% per week or 20% every other week. Weekly is better and changes more net water over time, and keeps water quality more consistent.

When there is a nutrient export problem, I suggest stepping that up to 20% per week until the problem is brought under control, and using that time to identify the source of the problem and correct it - whether it's over-feeding, inadequate export etc.

If you like to feed heavily, that's OK but know that this commits you to more water changing. Garbage out must equal or exceed garbage in.

To put it in visual terms: Your fish produce waste - we'll call it trash. They throw their trash all over the tank. Beneficial bacteria recycle some of that trash, but they can't recycle all of it so what is left becomes nitrate and phosphate. Doing a water change, effectively takes out the trash.

If your fish are generating a 2 bags of trash every week and you take out 2 bags of trash every week (by water changing), everything stays good.

If they create 2 bags of trash every week, and you only take it out every 2 weeks, then there are 4 stinking bags of trash waiting by the door to go out by the time you do that. Not ideal, and the room air might be a bit ripe, but it's livable.

If they create 2 bags of trash every week, and you only take out one bag, that leaves one to rot. Repeat that week in and week out, pretty soon your house looks like something out of, "Hoarders" and your fish are choking in their own waste.

The goal is to keep that trash going out, as consistently as it is being created.

Hope that gives you a visual sense.

Jenn

 

[jennm]

Another question - what kind of biological filter media do you use, other than the live rock?

You might want to add some Seachem Matrix or Denitrate to your sump, for extra surface area for denitrifying bacteria.

 

[reeferkeifer]

JennM;1035515 wrote: Another question - what kind of biological filter media do you use, other than the live rock?

You might want to add some Seachem Matrix or Denitrate to your sump, for extra surface area for denitrifying bacteria.

My brain is melting with your incredible visuals and descriptions. I do not use any filter media. Just live rock and I have about 2.5 inches of caribsea aragalive.

 

[russ-iv]

hydrometers are calibrated at a general temp. the instant ocean swing arms are calibrated at 60 degrees usually. so if you are running at 80 degrees and the hydrometer states 1.026 you are really 1.029. the reason is because the warmer water's atoms are excited and there are actually less of them than the calibrated density of the colder stuff. many a time people compare their refractometer with their swing arm and state it is junk without taking this in to account.

i agree with crew, however we have to take in to account the pitfalls of messing with 1.026. i personally keep my salinity at 1.023. i keep it there because

1: fish use energy to regulate the salt composition of their bodies. less salinity is more energy used for fighting off other infection or easing of stress
2: i dont have an ato yet. i could get 1.026 and if i evap my usual 5 gallons daily (yes i have a chiller) it will go up to 1.027-1.028. doesnt really help me much with buffering for failure. as opposed to 1.023 that evaps to 1.025.
3: everything seems happier. every tank is different.

to the op: get a refractometer or go low on salinity if u are in the 78-80 range and evap water daily.

i usually have the white face with my tangs when stress occurrs when i change water. usually a sharp temperature change. if it is ongoing, something is continually stressing. what? i have no idea. maybe it is the HLLE.

these are just my experiences. i hope it works out.

 

[jennm]

Russ, you are spot-on in your bullet points, IMO.

Regarding the white face - there's a difference in the colour-changing that fish (esp. tangs) can do on a minute-by-minute basis when there's sudden stress.

HLLE is very different. It's a condition that can become chronic if the early acute symptoms don't prompt the keeper to correct the problems. Washed-out looking colour is all the time, not just during a short stress.

I used to have a bunch of HLLE orphans in my shop - tangs that had long-term disfigurement from HLLE that went undiagnosed and the underlying issues not addressed.

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78070&highlight=houston%2C+hlle">Here's an old thread of mine.</a> This fish was brought to me nearly dead, as you can see. The thread shows before/after with a 2 year interval. He would not have lived another 2 years without intervention. And while the cause(s) of HLLE are still a topic of debate, I tested the bag water this fish came to me in, and it had nitrate and phosphate off the chart. Nitrate test turned so deep red it was nearly black - worst I've ever seen.

Jenn

 

[reeferkeifer]

I brought a sample of my water to my LFS and had them test it to compare with my test results. I mentioned to them I was using API and they patted me on the back and told me it was going to be ok. I tested a week ago before a water change with the UV and skimmer running. They tested today with no skimmer and no UV since last Monday night. The things that tested the same as my test were ammonia (0), nitrites (0) and pH (8.0). They then test the nitrate and it was 5 and I got 40. The salinity test on the refractometer read 1.016. I was reading 1.020. He explained it to me just like you did Russ. Needless to say I need to get a refractor meter and new test kits. But overall it sounds like I am good to go. I plan on doing a big water change again tomorrow and turn the skimmer and UV sterilizer back on. Thank you again for everybody's feedback. It is always a wonderful lesson to read what everybody has to say.

 

[jennm]

LOL! Patted you on the back and said it would be OK That's awesome. Who did that? I want to shake their hand.

Definitely need to address the specific gravity, that's very low - but hey it will keep ich away

I'd still watch for HLLE in that tang though... not sure what might be causing it in light of this new info, but it's important to nip it.

Jenn