Converting fresh to salt...advice please....

[jgoal55]

Hi all,

This might be a long one but i appreciate any advice you guys could give me. Thanks in advance...

OK, so I've made a major/ possibly stupid decision to convert my favorite tank in my house (a 135 all African Cichlid (mixed malawi) tank) into a fish only saltwater tank. I just purchased a 55g that I will use for the leftover cichlids that could fit in there. I'll trade the rest in.

that said, I need some advice on equipment to finish setting up the 135. Right now it has a Rena XP3 canister and a Penguin 350. I really want to try and spend as little money as possible with this conversion, however I know that I also want to do it right and not have a few hundred dollars (im guessing that's what the fish I want will cost) worth of fish die later on.

I was hoping that leaving the canister with filter pads and nothing else and leaving the Penguin with no bio-wheels would be enough. I know I'll probably also need some pumps to get some current running though the water.....

Ok, so to the point.....do you all think that said filtration will suffice and if not, what should I look to purchase?

Second, I want to put a large trash can in my garage with SW but I need a pump to get the water to my tank. It's a distance of about 40-50ft. What type of pump do you think I need for that?

Thirdly, in addition to filtration, what other stuff should I be looking into to finish the conversion?

Thanks again,
Jorge

 

[dbm5557]

I think the first think you need to consider is a sump. Sumps help with surface skimming and it will give you a place to store your protein skimmer. You REALLY need to invest in a protein skimmer unless you plan on doing water changes an awful lot. For a tank your size, your protein skimmer would be pretty big, so having the sump to hide it away in would be really nice.

Once you have your sump set up, your return pump will add alot of flow to your tank. Depending on the amount of flow generated by your other two pumps, you might have enough (but I doubt it). You can add in a modded maxijet or two and you should be ready to go.

 

[justonemoretank]

Before starting the conversion over to salt water I would run the numbers and get an honest total of what you are going to spend. Usually when people try to get into saltwater (or reef tanks for sure) and they go cheap they end up having to purchase all the equipment over again because the cheap stuff just doesn't work well.

Have you ever used Copper in the tank to treat ich or other fish diseases?

What kind of critters do you want in your new salt water tank. This will dictate what type of equipment you will need. Strong lighting, strong current flow, skimmer size/expense, etc is all determined by what you eventually want in the tank.

OK... let us know everyone wants to help out.

 

[kwl1763]

I agree with just one more tank, before conversion do all the homework. Unfortunatly almost none of the equipment is transferrable. Canister filers are OK but are almost never used in saltwater. A good skimmer, live rock/sand, and a sump as mentioned would honestly be all you really need but that is several hundred dollars worth!

The tank is the cheapest thing in this hobby!

 

[xyzpdq0121]

LOL The tank is turely the CHEAPEST thing in the hobby!!!

I agree... You can use the penguin with the bio wheel with no problem... I could can the canister filter... It is going to give you problems with NO3 down the line... Get yourself a sump/fuge, some good sand and make it a DSB, Some live rock for the sump/fuge even if you are not using LR in the main tank, a GOOD skimmer and that will get you atarted..

I can read your mind on what you are wanting to keep... Let me guess.... Agressive fish right?!? Well one thing people do not consider about those fish is that they are waste producing machines... They are messy eaters, they crap worse then me after eating taco bell, etc... You need better filtration for a few puffers then you need in a reef tank. If you skimp in this area, you are just setting yourself up for wasted money.

 

[jgoal55]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the reponses....I kind of knew that the sump option would be the most popular but I was keeping my fingers crossed that it wouldnt be.

The problem I have (which I forgot to mention) is that I reinforced the stand that the tank is on with a bunch of 2X4's because I got it used and didn't trust it because it was wobbly. This significantly took away space that I would have had for a sump). How big a sump would you need on a 135 anyway? I could potentially custom build some sort of container to use as a sump.

As for the types of livestock I was thinking to put in there, XYZ was absolutely right! I am wanting to put some predators in there, mainly a lion, probably a trigger, some sort of puffer, an eel, and if at all compatible, a couple of tangs. I also thought of doing a tang only tank but I know myself and I know that with that much sapce I would love to see some aggressive predators hunt.

I was planning on putting some live rock in there but not huge amounts. I have no problem putting lots of base rock and hope it seeds. I am going to also use a lot of hermits and snails of course (probably Turbo).

Ok so that said, and assuming that I do go with a sump even though I would more than likely have to custom build it (with Lee's help of course), what do you think would be my approx. bill here? Or if you guys could list what I may need I can go price all that out.

And if for some reason there is just no way I can sump it, what are my other options if any?

Thanks again guys.

 

[glxtrix]

Jgoal55 wrote: .....though I would more than likely have to custom build it (with Lee's help of course)

dang, if I dont get called on to make the worlds best queso, its to build tank parts, love it.

 

[johnqx4]

Don't want to burst your bubble... but "cheap" is a very relative term in this hobby with very little real meaning.

Before you go further, run the numbers... You already have the tank and stand. However, that is the "relatively" cheap part. You should figure on about $50 per gallon over the next couple of years.

People first hear that number and they think it is crazy. Move up to a Reef tank and that will seem cheap. It adds up!

My $.02 worth,

johnny

 

[justonemoretank]

Ok a predator tank is much "cheaper" than a reef tank so that is a good starting point for most getting into this addiction... errr I mean hobby. Predator tanks can go much cheaper and less elaborate on the lighting. I will let someone with a predator tank tell you what they are running but you could go with some PCs or even NO flourescent lights if you are on a budget. I would try and get some type of sump under the tank. I have a 50g sump under my homemade stand for my 120g tank. You will want a good skimmer so you will drop some money there (beckett or needlewheel). You do not need lots of flow in the tank so you do not need Closed Loops or a bunch of powerheads in the tank. The canister filter is not a good fit for your planned saltwater predator tank. It is just going to get gunked up with junk pretty quickly and keep the water quality pretty poor. Some of the larger fish (Tangs and Angels) are prone to developing Hole in the Head and Lateral Line diseases if stressed and/or kept in poor quality water. Hope this helps some. Ask away if you have any more questions or need help and more specific equipment recommendations.

 

[glxtrix]

I dont think "cheap" is relative term.....You can get super cheap in this hobby, all the way down to making every part needed to successfully run a reef tank; thank god for being DIY savy. We all need to think back 10+ years when most of the equipment we have available today wansnt around, and I've personally seen a few large tanks that still run no skimmer, sump or have any high tech equipment on them and they are amazing. Not going to get into that tho cuz that will just make a huge debate and that on here is never good. Like I said jorge, youre going to need a good skimmer for those fish, they produce a lot of waste! Thats really going to be the bulk of your money there, then a hob overflow (cuz god knows I'm not going to lift that tank again to get that thing drilled) a sump, which we can make a HD run and see what kind of containers they have that will fit under your tank and a return pump from the sump to the tank. If you want to do it cheap from the start, thats all you need. You dont need LR, you dont need lights, you dont need big pumps, tho your tangs will enjoy that. Ok, here is a basic price list that youve been asking for.

Skimmer - can always find used, so figure anywhere from 150-300
hob overflow - 30-60 --> this all depends on the site or if anyone has one.
sump - obviously depends on what we can find at HD
plumbing --> HD will have all thsoe parts lets just say 30 could be + or -
return pump - 40-100 --> all depends on brand and flow rate.
salt - 31.99 for IO.

so figuring the "high" side youre lookin at 500+ to do that switch. And the "low" would be just about 300. It just all depends on how indepth you want to go. If you want base/live rock then thats going to up the cost. The only thing relative here is if you want to add corals to this tank, youre going to spend a lot more money and should set it up differnt from the start, but seeing as tho i know you and you dont want corals in this tank, the setup process is a lot different. Also in reguards to the sump and canister filters, there should be nothing in those canister filters for the exception of filter pads, and those will have to be changed out quite frequent, they will get dirty very fast in a predator tank. A sump is the way to go here and fortunately there are cheap methods of doing this, plus it'll be a place to house your skimmer, heater and to have a place for your water top off. I might be missing some things, but thats all I can think of now, anyone else please chime in with thoughts and suggestions.

 

[johnqx4]

glxtrix wrote: I dont think "cheap" is relative term.....You can get super cheap in this hobby, all the way down to making every part needed to successfully run a reef tank; thank god for being DIY savy.

I'd like to "respectfully" disagree a bit.

In my current iteration... I have made all of my stands, all of my canopies (with DIY or retro lighting), done all of my plumbing and run all of the electricity. I have also made several skimmers (although because of other considerations I am currently using one i purchased).

I DO AGREE that the hobby can be made much more affordable if one is willing to do some of the work. Otherwise, I couldn't be in it.

However, looking at your numbers. There are several more things to consider. Your prices are the most optomistic possible.

At 135 gallons, you are going to need a whole lot more salt. Plan on doing water changes? better get a lot more. What about the rock and sand. Even with base rock, it will take a lot to fill that tank. Also it has to be seeded. What about the clean up crew. Oh, if you are doing water changes, where does the water come from. Are you going to buy it all, or what about an RO unit?

test kits
meds or QT tank
other chemicals
filtering media


I'm not saying it can't be done, but telling someone that they can expect to set up a 135 gallon tank for $500 dollars is setting them up for heartache and pain. It is possible to buy a good running car for $500. But telling someone that is what they can expect to spend is a whole nother matter.


I have had a number of predator tanks. They are cheaper to set up than reef tanks. The savings are largely in the lighting cost. For the tank to be a long term success one should expect to maintain at or near reef like water quality. And as the bio load increases, cost to maintain go up geometricly (sp?)

Price and cost are two different things. Price is what you pay the first week. Cost is what you pay over the next couple of years. A lot of people jump in based on the price to "buy in" to the hobby, only later to be bitten by the unexpected cost.

My $.02 worth

johnny

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Awsome post Johnny... I have to agree... You can do it "cheap".... Going the DIY route is cheaper then paying retail for the parts... Getting used parts is cheaper then going retail... But none of it is "cheap". First, you have to have the time, and experience to do the DIY route. If you do not have the time, you have to buy alot of beer and queso dip for the person/people you recruit to help you. Depending on the size of the project that is not cheap.

As I said, Large fish = large waste = Larger costs. Talk to Sal (Horseziggy), his tange tank is awsome and at 450 gal is by no means cheap. Now he has 1000 lbs of live rick (or pushing that now) but he has found the cheapest way to aquire that.

If I could set up a 100+ gallon tank for under $500 and have it run, I would be there like white on rice!

Glxtrix: I agree, the technology has increased over the past 10 years, so has the price... I am one of those guys who came from the older school. Now you have ozone and chillers and aquacontollers and stuff... We did not need any of that 10 years ago and no you do not need any of that now. But the basics still apply. You need some sort of filtration for your fish... and with a shark you need more then with a clown.

You want to set up for cheaper,... make your own "liverock" and really have a DIY project that is fun for the whole family!

My best advice from someone who has walked the "cheap" line in this hobby for more then 10 years... Spend money where it matters and save yourself the headache later.

I am borrowing Johnny's $.02 here. (That is how cheap I am!)

BTW: Your turbo snails will become $2.99 fish food rather quickly in a puffer/trigger tank.

 

[cameron]

If you want easy and relatively cheap, stay away from corals for now.

Keep the canister, but dump the pads. Canister filters are great for running carbon and GFO (removes phosphates and other stuff). Because of the trays, you can optionally run other items. They also add flow to your tank which you are going to want. Total cost $0.

I am a sump fan because it pretties everything up and increases total water volume which in turn adds stability. However, you don't need one. You could easily run a predator tank with a quality HOB skimmer or maybe even two depending on the bio-load (number of fish, size and feeding habits). Again I strongly suggest a sump, but I don't think you have to have one. There are a handful of quality HOB skimmers out there. If you go sump, you will likely have $100 in an overflow (don't cheap out here or you could end up with lots of water on the floor). Another $50 in plumbing around $50 in the sump container if you go rubbermaid and probably $150-$250 for a good skimmer. Then a return pump for at least $50. If you go HOB, you could pick up a couple Dual Octopus HOBs for less than $300 total. It is possible to run this using one Turbofloater Multi off the back, but you will be pushing the skimmer to its limits depending on bio-load.

I would go barebottom if you don't mind cleaning more frequently or a 1" sandbed if you like the look. I have nothing against DSBs but they cost more and a few other good reasons to avoid one. Unless of course you want a critter that heavily sifts. Figure $0 for barebottom or around $70 for a 1" sandbed.

You are going to want some flow so I would suggest at least one Hydor Karalia 3 or 4 if you can find them in stock somewhere. If you have a little DIY in you, try mjmods.com and pick up a kit that allows you to mod a cheap pump making it pump out up to 2400gph. A couple modded pumps or Hydors will run you around $100. You can find some good pumps used and save some money here for sure.

Heaters, temp, etc you have. You will need a couple test kits and such for another $50 or so.

Probably the last big purchase will be rock. You don't have to have this, but it is a key component in filtration and STRONGLY recommended. You can DIY for around 50 cents a pound. After that, you are looking at around $3 per pound for the cheap stuff. Depending on the type of rock figure 90-150lbs of rock for your tank. Probably $300 at the cheapest.

My 2 cents worth. I would budget $1000 since there are a lot of incidentals along the way such as salt and food.

 

[jgoal55]

Ok,

so judging by all the different responses I guess about $1000, give or take a couple of hundred, depending on whether i find some stuff used or not, is what I would/should budget.

I won't buy turbo snails becuase even though I will love my fish $3 fish food is a little too gourmet for them.

The Hydor Karalia's are in stock now at Dr. F&S and I bought two of those (3 and 4) becuase even thought the DIY mod pumps were a bit cheaper (about $10 after you buy the kit), $10 bucks is worth me not risking Doing it myself (though I am sure I could). There went $126 with two Stealth heaters for my 55 (they were on sale).

Thanks Cameron for that awesome response and to the rest of you as well. I'll let you all know what I decide. Someone made a good point about set-up cost versus price....I am more worried about my intial cost than what I spend over a couple years. Sure, I don't want to go in debt in two years, but I dont mind spending a little bit here and there to get the tank done. I just don't want to spend too much initially.

I am going to see if I can accomplish this for $700-800. If not, I may have to wait until after I get married (though I heard it only gets harder then). If I can't I'll probably just leave my happy cihclids in their nice large home and just keep working on my 30 gal reef tank.

Of course, my other option would be to use the 55 as a reef tank and turn the 30 back into a qurantine for the FW fish. But then agian that would by far be the most expensive option so I think I'll stay away from that.

Thanks again for all your responses...I really appreciate the help.

 

[johnqx4]

Well... Marrige is pretty good experience to get ready for reef keeping... It will darn sure help you figure the difference between price and cost. It is cheap to get married. It cost a "bit" more to stay married, and even more to get unmarried. At least with SW tanks, you can shut it all down and stop the pain:yes:

Thank God my wife doesn't read this board...

johnny

Jgoal55 wrote: Ok, I am going to see if I can accomplish this for $700-800. If not, I may have to wait until after I get married (though I heard it only gets harder then).

 

[cameron]

Jgoal55 wrote: I am going to see if I can accomplish this for $700-800. If not, I may have to wait until after I get married (though I heard it only gets harder then). If I can't I'll probably just leave my happy cihclids in their nice large home and just keep working on my 30 gal reef tank.

I think you can do it $700-800 if you shop well. The hardest part at least for me where the mistakes I made early on not knowing exactly what I wanted. If you can avoid that, you can avoid a lot of duplicate spending.

As for marriage, I am not married but have been living with my GF for a while. The money invested annoys her, but the time it takes to setup a good tank is what really gets her going. She already is calling my tank a mistress. Set it up before you get married is my vote because afterwards you will likely get interrupted every time you go near that tank.

 

[glxtrix]

yeah and esp with kat yelling at you man, lol.