Discussion of Nitrates Phosphate Issues

[sailfish]

I am curious to see why some people have nitrates.

They have never registered on any test for me. Right now I have an elos test kit that looks to be 0 or 1. It seems there are lots of threads on here about nitrate problems and ways to fix it like adding vodka or a nitrate reactor.

I guess to me if you have a nitrate problem your skimmer is to small, you are feeding way to much, or you never do water changes.

I am just trying to understand so please do not be offended.

I feed 9 to 10 cubes of mysis every day in a 225gal plus system and have no nitrates. Now I do change 28 gals or so every week.

Just for the record I never used to fed this much in my previous tanks and do not suggest it. I use to feed every other day.

I only feed pellets occasionally and wonder if this is why I have never had any real issue with phosphates and maybe nitrates as well.

I did a test for phosphates on pellets verses cubes to see if their was a big difference.

I put 5 pellets of formula one in a cup of RO and let them set for 10 min. Then I filtered the water threw a coffee filter and tested it with a Hannna photometer

I did the same thing for Frozen Hikari Mysis & RO water by itself.

Pellets=5.05, Frozen Mysis= 1.09, RO Water=.01

Now this not a true representation of how much phosphates are in these food but does give you an idea of the difference.

This has been on my mind and thought it would be interesting to see what you guys think.

Joe

 

[jdabs]

Interesting thoughts Joe! I think that it's probably the combination of things your doing that keeps the nitrates low. Good maintenance on a tank with the proper equipment in place seems to be key. I'm sure that feeding and other things can play a part, but if you're not maintaining things then it can get out of control pretty easily.

 

[weaglereefer]

I switched from flakes and frozen to mostly pellets. My 90 reads 00 on my Elos nitrates test kit, and my 10 reads around 1. I throw in a frozen cube every few days to give the fish something to chase after. I just stick it on the inlet side of a powerhead and let the water melt it. My 90 receives monthly water changes of appx 20% and my 10 receives weekly water changes of appx 30%. My 90 has an ASM G1X skimmer with needlewheel and I skim pretty wet, full cup every 3 days or so. I'm also running carbon in a phosban reactor and have a 10g fuge with a deep sand bed, but can't for the life of me keep chaeto alive. My 90 has no hair algae or cyano, and I only need to clean the glass from film every other week or so. My 10 has no skimmer, only a HOB filter. I rinse the filters in the W/C water (old water) just to shake any debris off, no carbon.

 

[sailfish]

JDabs;415987 wrote: Interesting thoughts Joe! I think that it's probably the combination of things your doing that keeps the nitrates low. Good maintenance on a tank with the proper equipment in place seems to be key. I'm sure that feeding and other things can play a part, but if you're not maintaining things then it can get out of control pretty easily.

I think you are probably right but I do know some people who I believe have good husbandry but still have nitrates. Now I am not sure how much water they change and how often. To me thats the problem with these huge systems it costs so much to keep up with water changes.

I would not change as much water as I do if my system was not full of sps. Plus I am use to doing so it not a big deal to me.


Joe

 

[sailfish]

dawgdude;415994 wrote: Hey Joe do you have any Prime Reef Flakes you could test for me? I dont have a photo meter.

Na no flakes bring some over sometime and I will test them.

Joe

 

[sailfish]

au01st;415988 wrote: I switched from flakes and frozen to mostly pellets. My 90 reads 00 on my Elos nitrates test kit, and my 10 reads around 1. I throw in a frozen cube every few days to give the fish something to chase after. I just stick it on the inlet side of a powerhead and let the water melt it. My 90 receives monthly water changes of appx 20% and my 10 receives weekly water changes of appx 30%. My 90 has an ASM G1X skimmer with needlewheel and I skim pretty wet, full cup every 3 days or so. I'm also running carbon in a phosban reactor and have a 10g fuge with a deep sand bed, but can't for the life of me keep chaeto alive. My 90 has no hair algae or cyano, and I only need to clean the glass from film every other week or so. My 10 has no skimmer, only a HOB filter. I rinse the filters in the W/C water (old water) just to shake any debris off, no carbon.

Good to know. I figure it is more water changes & good working skimmer then anything but you never know.

Joe

 

[grouper therapy]

I think one problem that some may encounter as well is once you skip a water change or two or three then the nitrates build up. Then they resume with their typical % water change and wonder why the nitrates are not getting lower not realizing that is all about saturation and now they have more nitrates to saturate. I was thinking about me and your conversation at the meeting and test some of my foods as well.

 

[sailfish]

Good point. If you want test some just bring me some food.
Joe

 

[tgray3]

I had a thread along these lines not too long ago where i stated the difference i saw in SF bay and Hikari cubes. I have a 55 with an HOB fuge, skimmer and small can that i run carbon and GFO in. My nitrates come out less than 0 on 3 different kits, Red Sea, Seachem and Salifert. I had an HA outbreak when using the SF bay cubes; switched back to Hikari and the HA died off but i am now fighting the cyano, which i'm assuming sprang up as a result of the nutrients being released by the HA as it died off. Before the SFB cube incident i had no HA or Cyano at all and the nitrates and po4 came out less than zero on the above mentioned test kits.

 

[ralph atl]

Joe, for whatever reason, you are blessed with a well balanced tank! That's great! I, unfortunately am not. I would venture to say that if everyone had it that easy, carbon dosing and nitrates reactors would not exist today. Just look at all the threads on RC?


I do 20% water changes weekly or bi-weekly, have a decent skimmer (skim wet), have a fuge, good live rock, 2-3 inch live sand (kinda new, too), feed 4-5 cubes a day of a mixture of frozen PE mysis, Hakari Brine, Cyclopeeze, Squid, Selcon, etc.

Live stock:

2 false percs
1 Melanurus
1 Leopard
1 Christmas
1 Red Tailed Flasher
1 Pink-bar Gobi w pistol
1 Yasha Hase Gobi w pistol
1 Red Scooter Dragonet


In July when I upgraded tank, I decided to try to start incrementally lower my vodka/vinegar dosing to 3 ml. Well, my trates got up to 10.0! no beau-no!
I was fighting dino, poor colors on sps, etc.
2 weeks ago, I gave up and decided to incrementally go to a "new dosage". Monday, my trates were at 5.0 (at 10ml Vodka/vinegar). Wed I went up to 13ml, and tonite my trates are back <1.0! Dino is almost gone, just small patches here and there.


About a month ago, I did replace all my filters on my RO/DI unit. could be a factor.

SO? WHY NOT?
It's natural, adding bacteria to eat trates and phates...........

 

[coolsurf]

Interesting post. I myself try to have a little nitrate in my tank for the clams. I do not overdo it. I try not to exceed 10 but attempt to balance it out at around 8 ppm. I do not overfeed (I don't think I do anyway) and rely on my filter sponges to add the nitrates.

 

[sailfish]

mysterybox;416388 wrote: Joe, for whatever reason, you are blessed with a well balanced tank! That's great! I, unfortunately am not. I would venture to say that if everyone had it that easy, carbon dosing and nitrates reactors would not exist today. Just look at all the threads on RC?


I do 20% water changes weekly or bi-weekly, have a decent skimmer (skim wet), have a fuge, good live rock, 2-3 inch live sand (kinda new, too), feed 4-5 cubes a day of a mixture of frozen PE mysis, Hakari Brine, Cyclopeeze, Squid, Selcon, etc.

Live stock:

2 false percs
1 Melanurus
1 Leopard
1 Christmas
1 Red Tailed Flasher
1 Pink-bar Gobi w pistol
1 Yasha Hase Gobi w pistol
1 Red Scooter Dragonet


In July when I upgraded tank, I decided to try to start incrementally lower my vodka/vinegar dosing to 3 ml. Well, my trates got up to 10.0! no beau-no!
I was fighting dino, poor colors on sps, etc.
2 weeks ago, I gave up and decided to incrementally go to a "new dosage". Monday, my trates were at 5.0 (at 10ml Vodka/vinegar). Wed I went up to 13ml, and tonite my trates are back <1.0! Dino is almost gone, just small patches here and there.


About a month ago, I did replace all my filters on my RO/DI unit. could be a factor.

SO? WHY NOT?
It's natural, adding bacteria to eat trates and phates...........

I never said anything was wrong with it. I am trying to understand why people have this problem in the first place. I personally have never had nitrates in the 3 different tanks I have had over the years. To be honest a I never tested for it the first year except for in the very beginning.

To me it would seem you change enough water not to have any nitrates but you do. Don't you ever wonder why?

I guess I am curious what the cause is and not necessarily how to fix it. I figured someone on here might have figured out what was causing their issue or at least have a theory.

I know I have my own theories about phosphate issues. Not that my ideas mean much but I always trying to understand the issues and their causes. Heck thats why I tested the pellets verse the frozen just to see and learn something new about it.

Plus it got you to post.:yes:

Joe

 

[ralph atl]

lol!

my theory:

I am adding more trates and phates through food and bioload than my system can handle, so I add some vodka and all my problems go away! lol!

 

[sailfish]

Yea Vodka use to fix all my problem or at least I thought it did. Then I went to Rehab and have been clean & sober for 3 years next Thursday.

Do you have a deep sand bed in your Refugium?

Joe

 

[ralph atl]

sailfish;416430 wrote: Yea Vodka use to fix all my problem or at least I thought it did. Then I went to Rehab and have been clean & sober for 3 years next Thursday.

Do you have a deep sand bed in your Refugium?

Joe

Good for you! Huge milestone! Congrats! Yup, vodka has it's dark side! Wife will be three in January, I believe.
(Sugar and or vinegar work well, too!)

However, no dsb yet!
I realize that that is definitly a solution. I had one in my old tank. Didn't set it up correctly I imagine. I have room in my sump to for one, not sure if I'm going there.

 

[jennm]

Interesting discussion. I've been tagging along, because this sort of thing I see a lot.

I've seen tons of debate over the years... bioballs/biowheel vs. no bioballs/biowheel... I've seen people who seem to do everything right, struggle with nitrates and some who have all the things considered to be "nitrate factories" (somewhat of a misnomer, really) - who have no issues at all.

Often I see people who think everything is "fine" come in with a water sample and the nitrates are higher than my test kit can read. We usually come to find out they've been over-feeding AND a bit lax on water changes. It can take quite a while to get it back under control when it happens. I usually recommend small (10-15%) water changes, but every 3 or so days, to dilute them back under control, while we determine what caused it to run amok in the first place.

People will ask things like, "Well I had a fish die 2 days ago - did that cause it?"... they removed the fish promptly upon discovering it was dead, so it didn't rot and foul the water - and even if it did, it would likely take a bit longer than a couple of days to spike nitrate way high.

More typically it happens that folks don't monitor it very carefully (or at all!), even if they are doing water changes, they aren't paying attention and they aren't exporting them as quickly as they are occurring, and so they tend to build over time, until one day a problem becomes apparent.

Same with phosphate, but it can be attributed to more specific things like amount/types of food, source water and such.

Nitrate is more of an organic buildup of waste that isn't being exported or converted as quickly as it's appearing in the system.

In my own tank (37g Seahorse tank), I feed copious amounts of food. It's only been up again for a short time, so nowhere near being prone to "old tank syndrome" but if I get a bit behind on water changing, I'm expecting to see nitrate. So far, even being delinquent in changing filter socks and water, I'm still not seeing *any* (much to my pleasant surprise.) Why? I have no idea. Only have 22 lbs of rock, a small skimmer, and a bag of Seachem De*Nitrate in the sump. De*Nitrate is a gravel-like substance, very porous and promotes the types of bacterial growth that denitrify... but that's it.

Then I see other folks, with "better" setups/filtration than I have, and they feed less, and they are always fighting nitrates. Sometimes I have a hard time figuring out why one person has an ongoing battle with phosphate and/or nitrate, and another sails along with no issues.

So I'm reading this thread with interest to see what I can learn.

Jenn