DSB maintenance, cleanup, preservation

[patrick214]

I am looking for experience from people who have succesfully maintained DSB's over extended periods of time...What were the staples of your DSB system i.e. what mainenance routines were practiced... was sand ever partially replaced or removed for cleaning and if so how often was each process performed.....Additionally what animals were incorporated to aid in preventing excessive accumulation of detritus...I have been particularly interested in the idea of adding small quantities of vodka to assist the proliferation of nitrogen and phosphate consuming bacteria... I am well aware of all the DSB naysayers out there and my intent with starting this thread is to help those who may already have DSB's by providing pertinent information from people who have succesfully maintained them in the past...I'm not completely sold on any of the systems DSB, SSB, or BB as they all have pros and cons....Currently I'm running a 5" DSB with 3/4" CC at the bottom followed by 3/4" medium-grade aragonite and 3.5" sugar-fine aragonite on top...If it is the overwhelming opinion of the club that DSB's are a thing of the past than I'm not opposed to removing it all together, however, personally and im sure many others would agree Id prefer to keep the DSB for nitrate reduction and planktonic production qualities if I were able to consistently prevent over-saturation. Really looking forward to all of your thoughts.....

 

[wolfie]

First off, I do not think my advice here to be any help to you since I do not believe in mixing sand. I am not saying it can not be done, but it will not work for with my style of husbandry and fish choice.

I keep a DSB of medium-grade aragonite over 2 years now in my system. I started out with a 55GL then change to a 75GL over a year ago.

My husbandry is consistent of weekly WC. Each time I do a WC I stick my hand into the sand and mix them up as much as I can to move it around. I believed that it will get the dirty stuff off the bottom of the sand and into the water so I can get the most out of my WC.

AS for the BEST sand sifting crew I find that the Sleeper Banded Goby are the best 1 to have. I try many goby and none come close to the Sleeper Banded Goby when it comes to clean up the sand. This baby will mix your sand up like there no tomorrow. Keep in mind that this goby are very active so if you do not have support under your LR you will get roc slide. Because they are very active they will leave sand on top some of your RL which will need to be blow out when you to WC. This Goby will get your mix sand mix also so in the long run you will end up with lager sand on top and your fine sand on the bottom.

My second system is also DSB, but I keep fine sand only. You guess it. I got a Sleeper Banded Goby in it also.

I do not recommend having a sand sifting goby in any system if you do not have rock support.

 

[linda lee]

WOLFIE;87181 wrote: First off, I do not think my advice here to be any help to you since I do not believe in mixing sand. I am not saying it can not be done, but it will not work for with my style of husbandry and fish choice.

<span style="font-size: 13px;">Mixing sand = not a good thing?</span>

I have bought live sand from several different members and am holding it in *live storage* until I set up a 90g.

Now I'm worried. Should I just pitch this stuff and start all over with one type of sand only? I want to make sure my new system is set up perfectly and my sand is a collection of different types. How critical is this?

Watching this thread with much interest.

 

[dakota9]

I've always gone with a DSB, I like the natural look, and the benefits that it brings. I really hate the idea of rock touching glass, so BB is out of the question for me, and has a sterile look in my opinion.

Part of my regular maintance is stirring the sand. I's stir the top most one inch or so during regular water changes, and back when my DSB was only 3 to 4 inches, once a year to every 6 months or so, I'd unload the tank, and shake the gravel around to diatom the tank. Now that I have a 6 inch bed, I'm not certain I'd go that extreme in the future. I'll still diatom every so often, but will probably just disturb the upper most two inches of the bed.

I have a very coarse substrate, it's appealling look is a trade off for not keeping burrowing livestock, but I can live with that.

When I set up my tank, I used eggcrate at the bottom to keep the rock from grinding on the glass, then I placed my live rock foundation (actually dead live rock that was cycled) with the largest pieces of live rock I have. Then I added my substrate. This is the best way to do a DSB as your rock pile isn't on a shifting cloud of substrate. My DSB is so thick it completely covers the first layer of rock.

My tank has been up and running for 3 years. Until last week it was a 30 long, but I upgraded to a 65g last tuesday.

I've never had the PH swings, Nitrite problems, and other issues that many people experience, I attribute that to my DSB and occasional diatom practices.

 

[dakota9]

It isn't the type of sand, it's the particle size that many people think needs to be uniform.

When I added new substrate to my old (they no longer make my 20 year old substrate) I found a simarlar particle sized new substrate at petco to add. My old substrate is shell, the new stuff is coral. I mixed the two.

 

[skriz]

Mixing CC with sand is generally not a good idea. Mising different sands is fine.

I have kept a DSB for 10 years. This is what you have in nature, so I strongly believe that they are a good thing for the tank. You just have to make sure you have some sort f power backup incase of power failure, otherwise the life in the sand will outcompete the other livestock.

I don't believe that "stirring" the sand is neccesarily good. If you are going to do this, I would waft over the sand letting the water lift the detirius up rather than digging in the sand. This way the deterius is suspended in the water column and not pushed into the sand bed. Natural sand sifters do a good job (goby, etc.), but you have to be carfule of your sand selection. THe finer the sand, the easier it is on the sifters, however, too fine will result in a very cloudy tank (had that it mine with very fine sand and a diamond goby).

Nassiruis snails and conchs will also clean the sand. Although, this will depend on how much real estate you have and how many snails you want in your system. Good thing about the nasarius snails is that they stay burried, so they're not an eyesore. Conchs are cool looking, so you want to see them. Most tanks will probably only need 1 or 2 max (conch).

If you have the access, you can vaccum the sand when doing a wc. this would also work, although I can't be bothered to do that since my tank is too tall!

hth

 

[skriz]

btw, I secure my LR by taking a concrete block and cememting an acrylic rod into it. I then drilled a hole in the LR and placed on the block, through the rod. This way, the rock can never topple (unless the rod breaks!)

 

[dakota9]

Oh, I really didn't answer your question did I Linda?

I'd use it, I don't think it's a huge issue, although it is true that Bob Fenner at WWM suggests differently, but we all break the steadfast rules the experts set. This is a small rule to break, IMHO.

I'd like to hear ideas from people why it isn't a good idea to mix substrates, as to better gain an understanding.

 

[skriz]

Your substrate will eventually mix together. The larger particles rising to the top. CC has a nice tendancy to hold detrius, this is something that is highly undesirable in our tanks. Mixing it with sand is just not a good idea! Also, cc is not going to provide you with any buffering.

I thinking mixing other types of sands is okay. I don't see a problem with different sizes of grain and different colours.

 

[george]

I've always mixed the sugar-fine (~.5-1.0mm) with the next grade up (1.0-2.0mm) to do my sand beds.

At what point would aragonite sand become "crushed coral" since all aragonite sand is technically crushed coral?

 

[dakota9]

CC does buffer, just not aswell as argonite, at least I was told it buffers 20 years ago when I started this hobby. That was the purpose in using it. It wasn't until years later that people started using sand, and then the old stand by CC became crap in the general mindset of hobbist.

Sand is better because of the added surface area of the small particles. The fact that detrius collects in the CC is true, but can be removed through vacuuming or occasional stirring of the substrate.

Some say that CC leaches phosphates or other chemicals in the water. I'm running a phosphate remover currently, and can purchase some type of media to remove most any harmful chemical in my reef.

So many ways to achieve the same results........

 

[roundman]

Not to highjack this thread but what about the care of a deep sandbed in the fuge. I have 2-3 in in tank and 4 in in the fuge.

 

[skriz]

I don't like disturbing the sandbed, period. I wouldn't mess with it in the fuge either.

Dakota-yes, running media to get ouch leached chemicals will work, but why do this if you don't have to? If something is adding to your phosphates, instead of adding another thing to mess with, why not use a substrate that won't leach? And yes, you can clean the cc, but then again, why add the extra maintenance? I like to enjoy watching the tank more than having to clean it.

But, like Dakota said, so many ways...

 

[jefft]

I have a 6 to 7 inch DSB in my refug and have no long term plans to stir it up. I have some snails the burrow into the sand and about twenty pounds of lr sitting on top of it. There isn't any open areas the a goby could get to the sand, but I am planning on putting in a brittle star and a few crabs.

 

[victor626nj]

Skriz;87281 wrote: I don't like disturbing the sandbed, period. I wouldn't mess with it in the fuge either.

Dakota-yes, running media to get ouch leached chemicals will work, but why do this if you don't have to? If something is adding to your phosphates, instead of adding another thing to mess with, why not use a substrate that won't leach? And yes, you can clean the cc, but then again, why add the extra maintenance? I like to enjoy watching the tank more than having to clean it.

But, like Dakota said, so many ways...

the answer is easy dakota is real old school reefer you saw his last post about the sump and him not wantting to let go of his magnum hes been doing this for a while and if it works for him hey let him .plus i think hes a little ocd and not use to change lol jk

 

[george]

Dakota9;87214 wrote: Some say that CC leaches phosphates or other chemicals in the water.

I can't refute this, but I'm very curious how this could happen with something that is essentially really, really coarse sand.

As I have mentioned before on the boards, I'm going full DSB with all my tanks for my new setup as I am convinced of their beneficial aspects as a natural food source over any detrimental aspects. The increased nitrate handling will allow me to run with less live rock in the displays which will allow me to focus on it as an aesthetic element instead of a filtration element.

 

[patrick214]

Good stuff all, although I'm kinda worried now about my CC. Funny thing is I was going to do all sugar-fine until an individual who ran the DSB tank at Fish Store suggested using a grading technique. I believe the primary benefit of this is to add extra bio-diversity and it is only 3/4" not an entire DSB I understand how it could become a problem...Is this something that I should consider amending if I really want my tank to last more than 2-3 yrs......Also Skriz over the 10 years was any sand replacement ever performed. I have read that DSB maintenance relies on keeping it fresh with new sand or replacing some volume of sand either annually or semi-annually.

 

[patrick214]

Also, when you say that animals in the sandbed will outcompete others, are you implying that the sand animals would deprive the system of any free floating O2 significantly faster than a system without a DSB would??

 

[FutureInterest]

All calcium carbonate substrates and rocks are possible phosphate leechers from my understanding. They have a tendency to absorb inorganic phosphates, and can slowly leech them out into the water. Typically this isn't a problem and it is actually a bonus as the substrate in people's tanks does an excellent job of keeping some of the excess phosphates in check by absorbing it. Ideally we want to remove phosphates through skimming and the refugium, but in practice the substrate and rocks do absorb quite a bit of phosphates.

At some point though, the substrate/sand/rock becomes saturated with these phosphates and will start to leech them back into the water column. This is one of the causes of "old tank syndrome" and the normal remedy is to replace the sand bed. We normally don't have the luxury of replacing our live rock, so people instead decide to "cook them" to remove the stored up phosphates.

This is why I'm leary of using sand old sand or rock as phosphate issues are no fun to deal with...

Personally I run a shallow sand bed of silica sand of no more than 1 inch and all my rock is elevated about an inch off the sand bed. I like the flow going over, around, and under my rocks. In terms of the depth of sand, I'm really not sure how much more denitrification a DSB has over a SSB, as the anaerobic zone in my tank starts at a mere 1/2" down. I do have a DSB though in my fuge which is about 2-3" deep. I never mess with that sand... although I constantly stir up the sand in my display. My nitrates are never a concern as they never move beyond 5-10 and that's without any water changes in the past few months to speak of. Perhaps a DSB in the display would keep my nitrates even lower, but I'm not really certain. I primarily keep a SSB because I have a shallow tank and didn't want to lose even a few inches of vertical real estate for sand... but it seems to have worked out just fine and now I actually prefer it.

 

[theplatypus]

Also, when you say that animals in the sandbed will outcompete others, are you implying that the sand animals would deprive the system of any free floating O2 significantly faster than a system without a DSB would??

Exactly.