Flame angel is Dead

[rajfish]

Hey guys,

Bad news. My flame angel is dead. Not from ich, I think, but the shock of the move. Found him respirating hard this morning and could not reverse it.

The other four (2 Clarkii, 1 Caudern, and 1 Lawnmower Blenny) are all doing fine. They are showing no signs of ich.

JUST TO BE SAFE, I am still going to quarantine for 12 weeks.
Here is my plan:

(1) 12 weeks at 86 degrees in the main tank. This might be a good time to get the real lights and do corals. I'll see how the frags Brandon gave me do first before I move on to anything else.
(2) Observe the four fish in the quarantine tank under regular salinity for two weeks. If I see any signs, I will start hyposalinity. To be truthful, once I got a refractometer, I will start hyposalinity.
(3) Do nothing else but observe and study.

My BIG CONCERN here on out (other than the four fish in the QT) is the health of my inverts. Can hermits, snails, porcelian anemone crabs, decorator crabs, skunk cleaners and zebra legs survive at 86 for 12 weeks?

rajfish

 

[stroid]

Dont you think that you are jumping the gun with all this QT stuff? You just killed one fish because you rushed into a QT situation. I hate to say it but someone needs to....Suasti was on to something in the other thread. If we overreact to any and every little thing in the tank and isolate and treat..I think we will do more damage to the tank then good. If I was you I would try to get your tank the way it was and let nature take its course for a bit. You shouldnt be treating with Chemicals you dont know how to use. As well I would do more research on fish disease and look for other methods then ones posted only on this site.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Ziad,

Being in health care I find this response shocking from you.

The QT did not kill the angel, the rushing into QT killed the angel followed by the trying to fix a PH issue that did not exist within the QT tank. I will admit, as will Raj, that the mistake was made but that can hardly be an arguement against QT. Even without treatment, the isolation has it merits. If a problem does arise, the fish do not have to move to begin treatment, it is easier to observe a fish in QT then in a display tank, it is easier to control the environment in a QT then it is in a display tank, ect...

The crabs and inverts can survive at 86 degrees but like I said before, I would keep it at 84-85.

 

[stroid]

Xyzpdq0121;72995 wrote: Ziad,

Being in health care I find this response shocking from you.

The QT did not kill the angel, the rushing into QT killed the angel followed by the trying to fix a PH issue that did not exist within the QT tank. I will admit, as will Raj, that the mistake was made but that can hardly be an arguement against QT. Even without treatment, the isolation has it merits. If a problem does arise, the fish do not have to move to begin treatment, it is easier to observe a fish in QT then in a display tank, it is easier to control the environment in a QT then it is in a display tank, ect...

The crabs and inverts can survive at 86 degrees but like I said before, I would keep it at 84-85.

I realize the QT didnt kill the fish I thought I made it clear that him rushing was the killer. My point over all is that he rushed into it with elements he did not know how to control. If this was for example at your house and you were doing it the fish probably would not have died. I was trying to say not to QT but I think in this particular situation he shouldnt have rushed and slowly eased into a treatment for his fish. Granted you dont learn if you dont try...but when you are dealing with life or death I think more research and ability is needed.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

I can agree with that... More learning and research on his part is needed. There are steps that are to be followed for a reason. But some people learn by doing, in this case it was a hard lesson and the fish paid the price. I doubt he will make the same mistake twice.

The part I had a problem with was agreeing with Suasti in the other thread and a comment like "If I was you I would try to get your tank the way it was and let nature take its course for a bit." Nature will not solve a problem, if one exists, on its own.

 

[suasati]

Xyzpdq0121;73006 wrote: I=

The part I had a problem with was agreeing with Suasti in the other thread and a comment like "If I was you I would try to get your tank the way it was and let nature take its course for a bit." Nature will not solve a problem, if one exists, on its own.

There is nothing natural about putting a fish in a glass box.


Raj,
Sorry to hear this, If I were you I will put all the fish in the display tank and leave them there. Your tank is only 29 gallons so a 5 gallon water change a week is not going to be a big deal. Do that, feed the fish, keep them healthy, do not add anymore fish for a good long while, actually you should stop at what you have for that tank.

 

[stroid]

Xyzpdq0121;73006 wrote: I can agree with that... More learning and research on his part is needed. There are steps that are to be followed for a reason. But some people learn by doing, in this case it was a hard lesson and the fish paid the price. I doubt he will make the same mistake twice.

The part I had a problem with was agreeing with Suasti in the other thread and a comment like "If I was you I would try to get your tank the way it was and let nature take its course for a bit." Nature will not solve a problem, if one exists, on its own.

Well I am not a big believer in chemicals (although some I do use). I think Suasti had alot of very valid points in the other thread and i have seen his fish and they are super fat and healthy. In regards to the other fish that he is going to try to QT for 12 weeks I think it is a bad idea until he has a full grasp of how to do it. Also I do think Nature solves its on problems otherwise things would die off after an intial outbreak. We evolve so do fish tanks (if that makes senses lol). I think taking a deep breath and not jumping the gun is what needs to be done. If he would have done that then we wouldnt be having this thread.

 

[jaandgc]

IME
I have found that if your tank is healty, the fish is healthy and you don't have any bullies in the tank, ich will go away on its own. I have had 7 or 8 fish that have gotten ich after they were put in the tank and I have not lost one fish to ich. Once the fish settles in and is not as stressed he will get rid of it his self. Now I would not buy a fish that is covered in ich from a store but I have bought some fish with a few spots of ich, and they and the rest of the tank have thus far made it just fine. Now I do not sugest that any one do it my way, I'm just stating that some times it is better to do nothing but provide a good home. I would think that 12 weeks in an 86 degree QT tank would stress the mess out of an otherwise healthy fish. Thats what I love about this hobby so many ways to do the same thing.
Jerry

 

[linda lee]

Slow down...... deep breath~!

This guy is trying so hard to do all the right things for the benefit of his fish. Telling him he *killed a fish* (in my opinion) could just drive a newcomer out of the hobby. I remember how I felt the first time a fish died. And I remember the sense of urgency that something had to be done now now now NOW. And to complicate that feeling of frustration, I got 10 different answers from 10 different people when I sent a plea for help.

I think there may be a big confusion here with labeling. <u>Raj is NOT setting up a QT tank. It's a hospital tank</u>.

QT Tank ~ We stress and stress and stress on here how important it is to house new livestock in a QT tank before they go into our systems. Personally, I will always do this from now on. I think it's always the right thing to do.

Hospital Tank ~ something you use in extreme situations to isolate and treat diseased fish. It's not always the right thing to do.

Maybe no one has actually pointed out that there's a big difference and the situations and methods for using each are not the same?

Raj... hang in there. I'm sorry for your loss. And your angel didn't die in vain if you gain valuable knowledge from this.

 

[rajfish]

I guess I should speak. First I am disappointed about the loss of the fish, but am not leaving the hobby. I have been through this before with freshwater fish.

I am sticking to hospitalling the fish in my QT (or HT). The tank needs to fallow. This will allow my corals to bloom (at higher temps) the inverts to thrive, and all the little things (copepods, algae) to come back so that I have a good "soup" for my fish.

I agree with Brandon, that you should not allow ich to stay in your tank. I see no reason why I should constantly risk a wipe out when all I have to do is separate, treat, and fallow the main tank. No sense in living on the hair trigger of total fish loss. Ich, even if sometimes benign, can EXPLODE! I have seen it with freshwater fish. One day you have on spot, then the next, you have like a million and all the fish are stressed.

My other promise is to NEVER AGAIN use a LFS. I am not a fan of mixing water from Nemo, PETCO, Cap, P'mart, etc. even if they run awesome water quality. High turnover demands quick movement. Even if there are no ich spots, there could be other diseases. I am ordering from liveaquaria next time.

 

[rajfish]

As a follow up, I have really thought hard about what I wish to do with the tank, and I feel that having 2 Clarkii is going to stress the tank in the long-run.

I really wanted 2 percula, but got impatient and got 2 Clarkii (stupid I know).

Here is the deal. I KNOW I have potentially tainted fish, and being a newbie, I am loathe to try hyposalinity and treatments as I may essentially kill them.

I would really like to trade my Clarkii for 2 percula. I'll even throw in my lawnmower blenny to sweeten the deal.

 

[linda lee]

rajfish;73037 wrote: My other promise is to NEVER AGAIN use a LFS. I am not a fan of mixing water from Nemo, PETCO, Cap, P'mart, etc. even if they run awesome water quality. High turnover demands quick movement. Even if there are no ich spots, there could be other diseases. I am ordering from liveaquaria next time.

Some fish were purchased from Live Aquaria recently that were not healthy. Some died. House everything in a QT for a period before it goes into your display. Even fish you get from fellow members in this Club.

EDIT: Well, not telling you what to do. Just offering it as a suggestion and telling you what we now do after our own recent heartbreaking fish losses.

 

[rajfish]

Hey Linda,

I was not implying that I would not QT fish from on-line or a member. I will QT ANYTHING from now on.

On the subject of perculas, I remember that Brandon said his fish are getting ready to spawn. Any chance you planning on keeping any of those guys and raising them? I trust your tanksmanship enough to get some from you if they ever spawn.

 

[rajfish]

I don't think fish get Ich from stress. Ich is a parasite that needs a host. No offense meant reef, but a parasite would be screwed if it had to look for a stressed host rather than just any ordinary host. I like Brandon's suggestions best thus far because it (1) comports with what is known about Ich, and (2) actually treats the Ich rather than assuming it is some ambient feature of a tank.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

rajfish;73046 wrote:
On the subject of perculas, I remember that Brandon said his fish are getting ready to spawn. Any chance you planning on keeping any of those guys and raising them? I trust your tanksmanship enough to get some from you if they ever spawn.

I doubt I am going to try to raisy fry babies. I will have all the live food in place to do it and I might "try" if they ever do spawn but I am not planning on it.

reef1973;73047 wrote: Fish get Ick due to stress. There is something causing the stress in your fish. I would try to find the caused of the stress. QT isn't the answer to your problem. If you don't address the caused of the Ick problem, you are going to have Ick again and again.

I give up... Seriously, I do...:doh:

If all this "QT is bad because it stresses the fish" and "the fish can fight it off themselves" crap is true, the how come we get one thread a week, atleast, about Ich or Brook or some other illness? The one good point that you made in your thread was by accident. "If you do not address the cause of the Ich problem, you are going to have Ich again and again." You are right, and the cause of Ich is having Ich in your tank. Remove the Ich and you remove the chance of getting Ich and Ich related problems.

But that is what I would say if I was going to say anything, but as stated earlier, I give up.... No more talk about QTing or disease prevention or treatments from me. God only knows I do not want to recieve any more PMs from people today about how it is wrong for me to call out their "misinformation" publically or their postings that are based on little more then the "dummies guide to saltwater fish"! I'll let people do their own research from now on and draw their own conclusions.

 

[jaandgc]

Well good luck raj, just telling you what has worked for me for the past 16 years with salt water tanks. I agree with you reef.

 

[jaandgc]

As for if you don't get rid of ich it it will come back, I have never treated my tank for ich and never will. I have had more than one fish in there with ich, but yet they are all healthy and fine now. I don't know maybe we all are right to some degree.

 

[purplegorilla]

rajfish;73037 wrote: This will allow my corals to bloom (at higher temps) the inverts to thrive, and all the little things (copepods, algae) to come back so that I have a good "soup" for my fish.

I am sure you are overwhelmed with bunch of "I should have done this, and I should have done that"..Well here is another you shouldn't do..

Corals don't bloom with higher temps..Actually they will die. Really, go here to read. http://www.reefcentral.com/modules.php?s=&name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=1">http://www.reefcentral.com/modules.php?s=&name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=1</a>

I know you want to have a nice saltwater tank right away, but patience is the key. If you have no patience like me, buy one that is already established and then learn from that.

 

[linda lee]

Xyzpdq0121;73051 wrote: No more talk about QTing or disease prevention or treatments from me. God only knows I do not want to recieve any more PMs from people today about how it is wrong for me to call out their "misinformation" publically or their postings that are based on little more then the "dummies guide to saltwater fish"! I'll let people do their own research from now on and draw their own conclusions.

+1 for all you do and all you say. Hope you <u>never</u> give up.

(And please, if I ever say anyting amiss, I hope you will continue to correct me where I'm wrong.)

Just know that you're appreciated.

~Linda

 

[suasati]

Xyzpdq0121;73051 wrote:
If all this "QT is bad because it stresses the fish" and "the fish can fight it off themselves" crap is true, the how come we get one thread a week, atleast, about Ich or Brook or some other illness? The one good point that you made in your thread was by accident. "If you do not address the cause of the Ich problem, you are going to have Ich again and again." You are right, and the cause of Ich is having Ich in your tank. Remove the Ich and you remove the chance of getting Ich and Ich related problems.

But that is what I would say if I was going to say anything, but as stated earlier, I give up.... No more talk about QTing or disease prevention or treatments from me. God only knows I do not want to recieve any more PMs from people today about how it is wrong for me to call out their "misinformation" publically or their postings that are based on little more then the "dummies guide to saltwater fish"! I'll let people do their own research from now on and draw their own conclusions.

Ok that's just rude.....

I for a fact from seeing Rit's tank know it is not by accident... neither is he, or can he afford to be careless.... his one joc would be worth more than most of our livestock.....