Help - Can't keep clownfish alive

[ben]

I'm fairly new to the hobby, and I'm getting pretty discouraged. No matter how hard I seem to try, I cannot keep clownfish alive.

I found a BioCube 14 on CraigsList awhile back and figured I'd give it a go. I've got it stocked with about 15 pounds of live sand and 12 pounds of live rock. I switched the stock filtration to an "InTank Media Basket", which is holding filter floss, Purigen, and ChemiPure Elite. I am also running a Hydor Korilla Nano powerhead and 2 12" LED strips for lighting.

My water parameters are consistently:
Temp: 80
Salinity: 1.024
Ammonia: 0
PH: 8.1 - 8.2
Alk 9-10 (*buffering with 8.4, drops way low without it)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: > 5 (usually 0)
Phosphate: 0
Calcium: 420 (dosing with seachem calcifier)

My livestock consists of:
2 x red leg hermit crabs
1 x margarita snail
4 x coral frags (gsp, zoas, kenya tree, green chalice)

So far, two pairs of clownfish (ocellaris) have died in the tank. After the tank had been established for about a week, I added a pair. One died after 48 hours, the next a day or so later. They both quit eating before they died, and they both died overnight.

About two weeks ago I added another pair. The larger of the two quit eating after about a week and died shortly thereafter. The smaller of the two seemed fine. About two days ago, he quit eating as much (still eating though), but died overnight. He didn't even make it a full two weeks. I should note, they both died at night too.

I got the clownfish from my reputable LFS. All of my other livestock are thriving. The corals are exploding with growth, and the snails and hermits seem as happy as can be. I also see a lot of copepods thriving. I've had LFS double check my test results. We are both at a loss as to what's killing my fish.

I would really really appreciate any advice / suggestions.
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[lsu_fishfan]

Sorry to hear your having trouble.

What type of food do you feed? When you purchase the fish do they eat at the store?

Do you recall the fish acting strange before their death? Not swimming around as much, breathing heavy etc. Have you looked at the possability that the fish was sick white dots like ich, velvet or brooklyellia, etc.

 

[civics14]

just wondering, so its been about 3 week since you got it online? and are you acclimating the fish before putting them into the tank?

 

[picoreefguy]

hey ben. i think the problem is that the tank just wasnt ready. its a pretty small tank so theres not much room to dilute any nutrients that may show up and being only a week old the first time there probably wasnt enough established biofiltration and since you put in a pair at a time it may be spiking up the ammonia and or nitrites/nitrates and then being filtered out after the fish die but before you test. my advise would be to wait a few more weeks without adding anything else to the tank. and use some sort of bacterial additive like aquavitro seed or something similar.

 

[ben]

I was feeding a small pinch of spectrum pellets once or twice per day. I tried feeding hikari frozen mysis too.

Both times the fish ate like crazy at the store and after I brought them home. They only seemed to stop eating right before they died.

I haven't noticed any odd behavior before they died, other than the not eating. Although, I may just not know what to look for. They definitely did not appear to be gasping for air, but did tend to stick to particular spots in the tank. They seem to be more active when the lights start to dim.

As far as disease, I did not notice any obvious, outward indicators. There were no spots or discoloration that I could tell.

Do you think there is something toxic in my tank? If so, wouldn't it kill corals and CUC too?

 

[ben]

civics14;1080673 wrote: just wondering, so its been about 3 week since you got it online? and are you acclimating the fish before putting them into the tank?

I did drip acclimate both times I added the fish.

 

[ben]

Picoreefguy;1080675 wrote: hey ben. i think the problem is that the tank just wasnt ready. its a pretty small tank so theres not much room to dilute any nutrients that may show up and being only a week old the first time there probably wasnt enough established biofiltration and since you put in a pair at a time it may be spiking up the ammonia and or nitrites/nitrates and then being filtered out after the fish die but before you test. my advise would be to wait a few more weeks without adding anything else to the tank. and use some sort of bacterial additive like aquavitro seed.

Thanks for the advice! I did use biospira when I started the tank. Perhaps you're correct, and I just need to give it more time. It's been running for about a month now. I will do as you suggested and wait a few more weeks before adding anymore livestock to the tank.

 

[civics14]

Only thing I can think of is that the tank didn't have enough nitrifying bacteria built up to convert the ammonia over quick enough.

 

[picoreefguy]

ben;1080679 wrote: Thanks for the advice! I did use biospira when I started the tank. Perhaps you're correct, and I just need to give it more time. It's been running for about a month now. I will do as you suggested and wait a few more weeks before adding anymore livestock to the tank.

another good thing to do would be to keep testing your water and look for an ammonia spike to make sure that you do get a cycle. because that first time your cycle might not have started yet. when cycling the best method i've found is to add something that will create ammonia in the water like a cube of frozen food (or just add a drop of pure ammonia to the tank) then test your ammonia and nitrites together, once your amonia has spiked and is starting to come back down and the nitrites begin climbing, start testing for nitrates. once your nitrites are 0 your nitrates will start to drop as well. after the nitrates reach 0 you're ready for a fish. also with that small of a tank its best to add one at a time instead of a pair

 

[lsu_fishfan]

ben;1080677 wrote: I was feeding a small pinch of spectrum pellets once or twice per day. I tried feeding hikari frozen mysis too.

Both times the fish ate like crazy at the store and after I brought them home. They only seemed to stop eating right before they died.

I haven't noticed any odd behavior before they died, other than the not eating. Although, I may just not know what to look for. They definitely did not appear to be gasping for air, but did tend to stick to particular spots in the tank. They seem to be more active when the lights start to dim.

As far as disease, I did not notice any obvious, outward indicators. There were no spots or discoloration that I could tell.

Do you think there is something toxic in my tank? If so, wouldn't it kill corals and CUC too?

That is correct, if there were a toxic element it would be effecting the coral just as much as the fish.

I agree with Brijesh that your tank is very young and would not take much bioload to spike nutrient levels. While nitrate is not very toxic to fish at low levels, ammonia can be a very harmful toxin to fish.

When I set up my 250, I didn't add fish for almost 3 months. While this is probably overkill I would give your tank another week or two to build up its bacteria levels. You could also look into something like matrix to help increase area for bacteria to host

 

[ben]

Picoreefguy;1080681 wrote: another good thing to do would be to keep testing your water and look for an ammonia spike to make sure that you do get a cycle. because that first time your cycle might not have started yet. when cycling the best method i've found is to add something that will create ammonia in the water like a cube of frozen food (or just add a drop of pure ammonia to the tank) then test your ammonia and nitrites together, once your amonia has spiked and is starting to come back down and the nitrites begin climbing, start testing for nitrates. once your nitrites are 0 your nitrates will start to drop as well. after the nitrates reach 0 you're ready for a fish. also with that small of a tank its best to add one at a time instead of a pair

Good advice. Thank you. I think the tank has cycled already. I've been checking parameters almost daily. Early on, the ammonia was around 0.25, and I could see the nitrites and nitrates build up. I eventually saw the ammonia level out at zero, nitrites at zero, and nitrates would climb very slightly until I do a small water change. Then they would zero out.

It sounds like you guys are telling me I need to let the tank cycle for a little longer without fish, and only add one at a time. I will do exactly that. In the meantime, I will keep checking water params to make sure things are looking good.

After some time has passed and I add fish back to the aquarium, I will update you all. Thanks for the input! You guys have been a great resource for me.

 

[picoreefguy]

LSU_fishFan;1080683 wrote: You could also look into something like matrix to help increase area for bacteria to host

yes. matrix will help a lot in a small tank like this. but keep in mind that just like live rock it also has to cycle. and even when the matrix is cycled you still shouldn't add more than one fish at a time.

 

[lsu_fishfan]

Ben, I would not recommend adding clownfish individually. In small tanks, the clowns will be territorial and could possibly kill the second one

 

[ben]

LSU_fishFan;1080686 wrote: Ben, I would not recommend adding clownfish individually. In small tanks, the clowns will be territorial and could possibly kill the second one

Good to know! Thanks.

 

[picoreefguy]

ben;1080684 wrote: Good advice. Thank you. I think the tank has cycled already. I've been checking parameters almost daily. Early on, the ammonia was around 0.25, and I could see the nitrites and nitrates build up. I eventually saw the ammonia level out at zero, nitrites at zero, and nitrates would climb very slightly until I do a small water change. Then they would zero out.

It sounds like you guys are telling me I need to let the tank cycle for a little longer without fish, and only add one at a time. I will do exactly that. In the meantime, I will keep checking water params to make sure things are looking good.

After some time has passed and I add fish back to the aquarium, I will update you all. Thanks for the input! You guys have been a great resource for me.

just saw this. and if you want to make sure your tank is cycled. get some pure ammonia and put in a very small amount like maybe half a ml. then test and see how long it takes for the ammonia to get back to 0. if it can filter out the ammonia overnight then your tank has cycled.

 

[picoreefguy]

LSU_fishFan;1080686 wrote: Ben, I would not recommend adding clownfish individually. In small tanks, the clowns will be territorial and could possibly kill the second one

while i agree with you that its not a good idea to add individuals over a long term i think that if you add them within a few weeks of each other it should be fine especially if they are both juveniles, adding 2 mature clowns at different times would be a different story and isnt recommended

 

[ben]

Picoreefguy;1080691 wrote: while i agree with you that its not a good idea to add individuals over a long term i think that if you add them within a few weeks of each other it should be fine especially if they are both juveniles, adding 2 mature clowns at different times would be a different story and isnt recommended

The ones I have added were defintiely juveniles.... probably about 1".

 

[ben]

Should I increase my cleanup crew? Are two hermits and one snail enough to be effective in a 14g tank? Would this help decrease ammonia spikes (considering there is probably leftover food in the sand and live rock) ?

 

[picoreefguy]

ben;1080693 wrote: Should I increase my cleanup crew? Are two hermits and one snail enough to be effective in a 14g tank? Would this help decrease ammonia spikes (considering there is probably leftover food in the sand and live rock) ?

id do like 5 or 6 of each total. and they wont help decrease the ammonia spikes the just keep food from building up in the rocks. they eat it out of the rocks and break it down into small pieces of poop that can more easily be filtered out. clean up crews are like a vacuum cleaner for your tank, they remove the junk you dont want from the places you dont want it but they dont take it out of your house for you. its up to you to remove the vacuum bag and take it to the trash (proper filtration and frequent water changes)

 

[jennm]

How much water flow is in the tank?

IMO you have a bit too much sand - how thick is it? Place live rock directly on the bottom glass, and a bit of sand no more than 3/4" to 1" deep and vacuum it at every water change.

I don't see a benefit to putting ammonia in the tank (ever... but that's another post) you definitely do NOT want to do that if you have livestock of any kind in there now because that will kill them for sure.

It sounds to me like it could be low dissolved oxygen and/or a low pH or pH swing. I'm guessing you've got a Koralia Nano that does 240 gph - which should be sufficient if it's placed properly. Is water moving at the surface where you can see it agitate? If not, is there any scum/film on the surface? If there is scum, that needs to be addressed.

I wouldn't feed but once, every other day - in a tank that small, overfeeding can foul the water quickly.

Are you dosing anything? If so, I'd stop - except for maybe some Stability when adding new fish and either Prime or Alpha when adding new livestock in case of ammonia/nitrite.

pH can drop at night - so can dissolved oxygen, especially if the water movement is less than ideal. The combination of the two could cause fish to perish.

Even if there was a small ammonia spike from a new tank - clowns are usually super hardy and while they shouldn't have to tolerate foul water, they usually do just fine. With no symptoms other than not eating right before they die, that's where I'm leaning as a theory, especially when the inverts are OK - they need less oxygen to respirate.

Jenn