Hippo Tang

[twocute2b4u]

I need help! I have a hippo tang that I have had for several years. He's about 4" long. He has HLLE and has been treated with Vitamin C and tons of nori. Now I am noticing that his fins on top of his body are starting to deteriorate.

What can I do to help this guy? It seems that the HLLE is getting much worse rather then better.

Thanks in advance for everyones input.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

HLLE is not researched enough to know a definitive cause. However, it has been determine that carbon fines (prticles) are at least one definite cause. Do you run carbon? If so, I would stop.

Also, FWIW, scalloping of fins, particularly in tangs, has been attributed to them eating a diet with not enough vegetation and too much proteinaceous foods. I have seen this mostly in Zebrasomas tangs, but it is possible for this species too.

 

[jennm]

I believe Bill (Icthyoid) has a theory about HLLE and Vitamin D... I'll see if I can find his thread.

What are your parameters? I know some will certainly disagree with me on these two points, but in my experience, high nitrate and/or stray voltage can contribute to HLLE.

You might want to check your tank for voltage. There's debate about whether this is a cause or not. I tend to believe it is, from my own observations, but others disagree. Nevertheless, it's something that *should* be addressed if it is present, regardless of whether or not it is causing obvious problems.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm">http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm</a>

Google around and you'll find info for and against that thinking.

Some also suspect carbon use as a cause too. Dunno...

I've got 4 tangs in my shop that came to me in advanced stages of HLLE, fins mostly gone - too gone to come back. 2 came from a tank with no water change for 2 years (water quality? diet?) and the other 2 came from 2 separate tanks where water quality and diet were ruled out, but both had faulty heaters (voltage was found in both tanks).

Over the years I've seen this many times - too many times to dismiss it as a possible cause - but I have no "science" to back it up as such.

Jenn

 

[jennm]

Here's Bill's thread:

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40000&highlight=vitamin+hlle">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40000&highlight=vitamin+hlle</a>

Jenn

 

[gmpolan]

I actually got my purple tang to heal up pretty good just with good water params and red nori.....fins all filled back in, pits all healed, well with the exception of the ones around the eyes. Try a variety of foods as well...

 

[twocute2b4u]

Wow, outstanding feedback folks! I have been feeding green nori that I bought from the Asian store in Duluth/Norcross. Additionally the nori is at least a year old, I am not sure if some of the nutrients are lost during shelf life or not.

Jenn, I hate to admit this, but I have been so busy establishing my business that I have not checked the parameters. I can also say that I have not been the best with water changes. When I do a water change I feel that I am going to get in motion and continue to do them, but with the pet sitting business I am busy in peaks and valleys. When I'm not busy caring for pets I am catching up on business and my house and my own pets.

I've really started to neglect the tanks as of late and the hippo tang really hit home. So at this point I need to determine if I have the time to do it or get out of the hobby. As much as I don't want to get out of the hobby, I don't want my livestock to suffer. {sorry for talking out loud here }

How would I check for stray voltage? I put my hand in the tank and I am not getting zapped or anything like that.

I do run carbon, I am going to do a water change as soon as the lights come on, at that time I will remove the carbon. I will also read up on Vitamin D. I think if this guy recovers that I will remain in the hobby, he was my very first fish and I want him to survive. So the next question is - if I remove the carbon and get him on the right diet (red nori), does he have the likelihood of surviving?

Also, in addition to nori, what else can I provide to him? He eats well, but apparently too much of the things he doesn't need.

Thanks everyone! I sincerely appreciate the help!

Denise

 

[jmaneyapanda]

JennM;580627 wrote: I believe Bill (Icthyoid) has a theory about HLLE and Vitamin D... I'll see if I can find his thread.

What are your parameters? I know some will certainly disagree with me on these two points, but in my experience, high nitrate and/or stray voltage can contribute to HLLE.

You might want to check your tank for voltage. There's debate about whether this is a cause or not. I tend to believe it is, from my own observations, but others disagree. Nevertheless, it's something that *should* be addressed if it is present, regardless of whether or not it is causing obvious problems.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm">http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm</a>

Google around and you'll find info for and against that thinking.

Some also suspect carbon use as a cause too. Dunno...

I've got 4 tangs in my shop that came to me in advanced stages of HLLE, fins mostly gone - too gone to come back. 2 came from a tank with no water change for 2 years (water quality? diet?) and the other 2 came from 2 separate tanks where water quality and diet were ruled out, but both had faulty heaters (voltage was found in both tanks).

Over the years I've seen this many times - too many times to dismiss it as a possible cause - but I have no "science" to back it up as such.

Jenn[/QUOTE]

Without dredging up old discussions, it has been shown, scientifically, that carbon does cause it. I can dig up the references if you like. An interesting point that Jay Hemdal at the Toledo Zoo and Aquarium makes (he spearheaded the research) is that in almost every single case, if not every case, where it has been "shown" to be voltage or similar, the fish improves when it is moved to a new system, coincidentally with lesser or no voltage. However, in case where voltage is simply "removed", there is no appreciable evidence showing it did anything. This is shown , to an extant, in your cases, too, Jenn. They came to a new system when they came to you. Again, just passing along info that has been amassed and will soon be publicized (I think).

 

[jennm]

I've had a few instances where it was caught early, the voltage was fixed (diet and water quality were ruled out, which is what prompted the voltage test in the first place) and the symptoms reversed.

These were my clients' tanks, not controlled experiments. I made no representation of this being scientifically proven, but it has been my experience on multiple occasions. For whatever it's worth.

And those systems routinely used carbon too - for what that's worth.

Call it what you will, I'm just sharing what I've seen firsthand.


Jenn

 

[jmaneyapanda]

JennM;580679 wrote: I've had a few instances where it was caught early, the voltage was fixed (diet and water quality were ruled out, which is what prompted the voltage test in the first place) and the symptoms reversed.

These were my clients' tanks, not controlled experiments. I made no representation of this being scientifically proven, but it has been my experience on multiple occasions. For whatever it's worth.

And those systems routinely used carbon too - for what that's worth.

Call it what you will, I'm just sharing what I've seen firsthand.


Jenn

again, not trying to discredit or criticize at all. If thats your experience, so be it. I just feel there are too many other counterpoints to make the claim that stray voltage is what does it. How many tank have appreciable, if not excessive voltage, and the owners dont even know it, no less have any fish showing HLLE? I would suggest a LOT. But, this</em> is just my opinion. Nothing more.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

 

[jennm]

I wasn't dismissing the notion about carbon. I even mentioned it in my initial post.

IMO when there's some different opinions about what's causing something, it's not a bad idea to examine all possibilities. I believe I mentioned all of the "popular" ones. And I did state that I don't have science behind me on my own observations. You always take me to task on stuff, maybe I shouldn't offer up any suggestions based on my own experiences, seems I have to defend them every single time, even with a disclaimer.

But hey, what do I know?

Jenn :-/

 

[superclown]

I would assume to test for stray voltage u would use a multimeter can someone explain the process o checking for stray voltage. Im def no expert but if it was me i would check the tank foe stray voltage do a water change with rodi water. In my opinion the best chances for survival is to offer a variety of food to ensure the tang is getting what he needs on the vitamin end. I don't know much about hole but i know most problems start with stress. I would stop running carbon if you are. If you don't have a test kit take your water to have it tested. If you have a reliable person you can brin the tang to to see if changing tanks makes a difference just throwin out all suggestions from what's been said up till this point

 

[jmaneyapanda]

JennM;580685 wrote: I wasn't dismissing the notion about carbon. I even mentioned it in my initial post.

IMO when there's some different opinions about what's causing something, it's not a bad idea to examine all possibilities. I believe I mentioned all of the "popular" ones. And I did state that I don't have science behind me on my own observations. You always take me to task on stuff, maybe I shouldn't offer up any suggestions based on my own experiences, seems I have to defend them every single time, even with a disclaimer.

But hey, what do I know?

Jenn :-/

My apologies. I assumed when you said:

Some also suspect carbon use as a cause too. Dunno...

that you were questioning its validity.

Jenn, how am I "taking you to task" on this? I disagree with your opinion, and state mine. And ask you to elucidate yours. I dont understand how me asking to clarify and counterpointing is "taking to task". I thought that was the point of this forum.

Regardless, there is no need to threaten to not express your opinion. I wont ever doubt or question or give opinion on your statements again. They will be left untouched.

 

[jennm]

Some suspect the use of carbon. I hadn't read the article. Since you posted it, I'll read it now. I mentioned it because there are people who subscribe to this theory.

I can say that I've seen fish, esp. tangs and angels, never develop HLLE despite constant use of carbon.

So is it the cause in my mind? Not necessarily. I think there may be several different potential causes, and some fishes seem more vulnerable to it than others.

Every tank is different. If it's carbon "fines" then it could even come down to the type of carbon, the quality of it, and how it is used, how it is prepared even.

OP asked what could be causing this - I threw everything I knew of out there and relayed some of my experiences.

I don't expect you to agree with me. I didn't tout my stuff as "gospel". I just grow weary of you going after my responses every single time. I mentioned that there are some that disagree - so I gave you validity even before you took me to task, yet again.

Jenn

 

[jennm]

The article describes the theory and that an experiment is ongoing. While the theory sounds quite plausible, it's not complete yet, so it's a bit premature to conclude that it's fact. JMHO. It's no more "fact" at this point than any other theories I've put out there.

I am curious to see what the results are though.

Jenn

 

[twocute2b4u]

Folks, let play nice in the sandbox. I don't want to have to clean up any lumps

Anyway, the nori, does green or red make a difference. Geoff mentioned that he used red, I've been using green for years. Also, what is the probability of saving this beautiful tang if I start feeding him right? Other then nori what do you suggest.

Help, seriously, I don't want him to perish.

Denise

 

[jennm]

HLLE won't kill the fish, at least not in the short-term, in my experience. It's more of a chronic, degenerative condition. I suppose if it gets bad enough it can kill, I've got some pretty sad looking finless specimens that were pretty far gone when they were brought to me.

Getting to it early can mean complete or near complete reversal of the symptoms. Once it goes too far, fins (and tail) won't grow back.

Jenn

 

[jmaneyapanda]

JennM;580701 wrote: The article describes the theory and that an experiment is ongoing. While the theory sounds quite plausible, it's not complete yet, so it's a bit premature to conclude that it's fact. JMHO. It's no more "fact" at this point than any other theories I've put out there.

I am curious to see what the results are though.

Jenn

Actually, Jenn, I ahve spoken to him, and there is more to this than in this blurb. Hence me saying earlier "Again, just passing along info that has been amassed and will soon be publicized (I think)."

But, I dont care to explain anymore. It can be voltage, or diet, or sunlight, or whatever.

 

[lilrobb]

I can't find the German article on this - but it essence said that HLLE is PROMOTED by carbon, not neccessarily CAUSED by carbon, though

 

[twocute2b4u]

LilRobb;580755 wrote: I can't find the German article on this - but it essence said that HLLE is PROMOTED by carbon, not neccessarily CAUSED by carbon, though

I am going to take the carbon out regardless. I just did a water change in my 34 gallon and now I'm preparing to do the water change in the 72. I hope like heck this heals him.

So how soon should I see improvements? And again, what is the difference between red and green nori?

Denise