Hyposalinity // Biological filter

[sir_cephalopod]

I recently purchased a Kole tang (Ctenochaetus strigosus</em>) from my LFS, and placed it in my quarantine tank. After several days of observation I noticed multiple small salt like flakes attached to it's body, in addition to behavioral changes, like darting and flashing around the tank. I positively identified it as Cryptocaryon irritans</em> and preceded to treat it with hyposalinity, lowering the SG down to 1.08 over a day and a half. It has now been in quarantine for almost three weeks, and everything is going great, except for one thing, nitrites! Going on a week and a half now, my parameters have been the following(Tested daily, two different test kits with fresh reagents):

NH3: 0ppm
NO2-: 0.15-0.20ppm
NO3-: 0ppm
pH: 7.9-8.1
Temp: 25C
SG: 1.08-1.09

<u>Quarantine tank:</u>
30 gallons with an Eheim cannister filter(+ media), fluval 150 watt heater, air stone and two additional sets of seeded media from my display tank. It has been set up for 4 months now. I did a fish-less cycle to establish a bio filter, using tiny tiny amounts of flake food for carbon and clean ammonium hydroxide. I hit every spike in the cycle (NH3,NO2,NO3) two months ago, and have been just feeding it ammonia and fish food while doing bi-weekly water changes and testing water parameters. The tank was always Oppm before the tang addition, and you could add a good amount of NH3, it was busting through the cycle quickly, big colony. Nitrites were also 0ppm for the first few weeks that the tang was in there.

Now I do daily water changes, and use Prime like its going out of style. I am very strict about my water quality, feeding only what it consumes, and if there is waste I do small water changes to rid of it. I also placed a very fine screen around the canister intake to keep large food particles from entering and becoming trapped in the filter. The RO/DI H2O out of my unit reads 65ppm coming in, and 0ppm going out. I am also running a small bag of seachem purigen to try and control organics, even though I cover that very well with the described methods above.

My first thought was that the bacteria were also(in addition to parasite) showing a physiological response to the change in specific gravity, providing a lag in the time in which NO2- is converted to NO3- as they adjust through reproduction to the new environment. Ample time has passed for adjustments, or so I thought, and I am still getting NO2- readings. However, no NH3 or NO3-, ever, with multiple tests kits produced by different manufacturers.

What gives? Any insight as to possible oversights would be greatly appreciated.

 

[smallblock]

what are the 2 additional sets of seeded media from your other tank?

Edit: I've never had the room for a QT system but to my understanding you want it as simple as possible. If it were me I don't think I would run the canister filter. I've never heard of people doing a cycle on the qt system either. You want it simple, a simple fitler, heater, air stones, some pvc piecs of pipe for the fish to hide in.

No sand, no live rock, no need for the biofilter stuff either.

I could be wrong because I have zero experiance with a QT system.

the main thing for the simplicicty is so that the disease has no place to hide. I hope this helps I'm sorry that I'm not really sure but someone is bound to pop in here with a better response.

Edit: I guess the canister filter would be ok, you would just have to stick to a certain kind of media, in my mind no denitrifieying sp? lmao stuff. Just don't know it sparks an intrest in me though. Good thread.

 

[skriz]

Smallblock;696898 wrote: what are the 2 additional sets of seeded media from your other tank?

Edit: I've never had the room for a QT system but to my understanding you want it as simple as possible. If it were me I don't think I would run the canister filter. I've never heard of people doing a cycle on the qt system either. You want it simple, a simple fitler, heater, air stones, some pvc piecs of pipe for the fish to hide in.

No sand, no live rock, no need for the biofilter stuff either.

I could be wrong because I have zero experiance with a QT system.

the main thing for the simplicicty is so that the disease has no place to hide. I hope this helps I'm sorry that I'm not really sure but someone is bound to pop in here with a better response.

Edit: I guess the canister filter would be ok, you would just have to stick to a certain kind of media, in my mind no denitrifieying sp? lmao stuff. Just don't know it sparks an intrest in me though. Good thread.

The above response is 100% incorrect.

It sounds like you've done a great job and taken great care setting everything up. I wouldn't have jumped to hypo, but it's a very common and accepted practice. From what I can gather, the ammonia and waste created by the fish may be greater than what you were manually adding during the cycle process. You should have enough biological, and with daily water changes your parameters should be spot on. Since they're not, that's the only thing that really comes to mind.

I generally overfeed; both in the display tank and especially in QT. Frequent syphoning and water changes are a must.

When do you plan on ramping up the salinity? You'll want to ramp it up slowly and then monitor the fish in the new conditions.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I agree with Skriz 100%. Uncycled QT tanks kill way more fish that disease or "stress". I also would feed heavily, and just clean more heavily. A fish under duress doesn't need malnutrition too. Let them eat at their choice, so offer a fair amount.

A good thing- marine teleosts arent as sensitive to nitrite as freshwater fish. That doesnt mean its not toxic, but its not as deadly as ammonia. Keep up with the water changes. Youre on the right path.

 

[smallblock]

Skriz;696915 wrote: The above response is 100% incorrect.

It sounds like you've done a great job and taken great care setting everything up. I wouldn't have jumped to hypo, but it's a very common and accepted practice. From what I can gather, the ammonia and waste created by the fish may be greater than what you were manually adding during the cycle process. You should have enough biological, and with daily water changes your parameters should be spot on. Since they're not, that's the only thing that really comes to mind.

I generally overfeed; both in the display tank and especially in QT. Frequent syphoning and water changes are a must.

When do you plan on ramping up the salinity? You'll want to ramp it up slowly and then monitor the fish in the new conditions.

Good deal I had it all wrong in my mind, thanks for coming in and clearing things up. Lots of good info revealed in this thread. If there is anyway I know you guys are busy with the new store but could we get a sticky possibly at some point on the proper way to set up and maintain a QT system?

 

[sir_cephalopod]

Smallblock;696898 wrote: what are the 2 additional sets of seeded media from your other tank?

Edit: I've never had the room for a QT system but to my understanding you want it as simple as possible. If it were me I don't think I would run the canister filter. I've never heard of people doing a cycle on the qt system either. You want it simple, a simple fitler, heater, air stones, some pvc piecs of pipe for the fish to hide in.

No sand, no live rock, no need for the biofilter stuff either.

I could be wrong because I have zero experiance with a QT system.

the main thing for the simplicicty is so that the disease has no place to hide. I hope this helps I'm sorry that I'm not really sure but someone is bound to pop in here with a better response.

Edit: I guess the canister filter would be ok, you would just have to stick to a certain kind of media, in my mind no denitrifieying sp? lmao stuff. Just don't know it sparks an intrest in me though. Good thread.

The two sets of media that was seeded in my display tank is eheim substrate in inert media containers. I kept this in the sump of my display tank for months before introducing it into my quarantine tank about a month before the tang was introduced. This is in addition to the media that is also in my canister filter.

The tank is simple, I have no substrate, just a glass bottom with one large PVC elbow, a heater, and an air stone. Why not have a cycled quarantine tank? Quarantining a fish can be a stressful process even if you are not treating a disease, and doing water changes all the time because you have an uncycled tank is just another source of stress and work, although I am currently in that situation even though I have cycled tank. I think the reason why most people do not have this is because they are treating a sick fish on the fly, and do not have time to cycle the tank. When I refer to a bio filter I am talking about some sort of substrate in which bacteria can colonize to break toxic chemicals in the water like NH3, NO2-, and NO3-. This could be a sponge filter, rock, synthetic media etc..

Edit:

Skriz;696915 wrote: The above response is 100% incorrect.

It sounds like you've done a great job and taken great care setting everything up. I wouldn't have jumped to hypo, but it's a very common and accepted practice. From what I can gather, the ammonia and waste created by the fish may be greater than what you were manually adding during the cycle process. You should have enough biological, and with daily water changes your parameters should be spot on. Since they're not, that's the only thing that really comes to mind.

I generally overfeed; both in the display tank and especially in QT. Frequent syphoning and water changes are a must.

When do you plan on ramping up the salinity? You'll want to ramp it up slowly and then monitor the fish in the new conditions.

What would you suggest other than jumping into hypo? What other alternative besides copper(will not do) would you suggest for treating Cryptocaryon</em>? On the excess ammonia and waste created by the fish, I guess this could be the problem. However, I would expect a rises in other parameters like NH3 and NO3- if this was the case, and I have not seen this.

The last trophont disappeared 6 days ago, so I will continue for another three weeks in hyposalinity conditions, and then slowly raise the SG to match the SG of my display tank over the course of about seven days. I will then continue to monitor in quarantine for another week at normal SG to ensure that the parasite has been exterminated.

 

[sir_cephalopod]

jmaneyapanda;696946 wrote: I agree with Skriz 100%. Uncycled QT tanks kill way more fish that disease or "stress". I also would feed heavily, and just clean more heavily. A fish under duress doesn't need malnutrition too. Let them eat at their choice, so offer a fair amount.

A good thing- marine teleosts arent as sensitive to nitrite as freshwater fish. That doesnt mean its not toxic, but its not as deadly as ammonia. Keep up with the water changes. Youre on the right path.

I agree 100%, a cycled tank just makes sense, one less thing affecting the fish in regards to poor water quality, and less work for the aquarist in regards to frequent large water changes.

It has been eating like a champ, taking nori off a clip, marine flake food, and frozen mysis shrimp. It is a little shy, but this is normal, especially for Kole tangs. It's colors, mouth, and overall appearance suggest to me that it is in great health, minus the Cryptocaryon</em>.

Thanks to everyone who has replied to this post, I appreciate your insight, and hope I can provide some helpful insight one day.