Hyposalinity... old arguments made new again.

cameron

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I love this months Advanced Aquarist...

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish#h1">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish#h1</a>

This article basically states the same things Brandon and I were saying about hypo with a few more pluses we didn't know about.
 
Very good read. I learned quite a few things in that article. Its interesting that fish regulate Na and Cl levels through their gills not their kidneys which was a major part of panda's argument, that hypo would damage the kidneys from overregulating... if I remember it correctly.

What I definately do remember of that debate... is that felt sorry for panda. You guys were tag teaming the crap out of him! Fun stuff.
 
I wouldn't feel sorry for Panda... he can hold his own even against two people posting arguments against his position. He is very good at debating and knocking holes in arguments.
 
No doubt, that was the only time I felt that way. If you relook at the thread you'll see me peeping in from time to time to try and quietly redirect it.
 
From what I remember Panda was using his "gut" feeling and extrapolated logic to make his point. His logic chain was reasonable, but he had virutally no data to back him up which is a very non-Panda argument. Even further, had he been arguing hypo in the way we were and I came along with his arguments he would have been all over me on that as he is one to hold people to research and not speculation.
 
I've arrived! Batten down the hatches!!!

Anyway, for what it's worth, I did find a couple of refernces that said hyposalinity isn't the totally safe thing it is sometimes painted to be. Ask Brandond about them, I think I PM'ed them to him. But, nonetheless, here is my official position on hyposalinity:

While I do think it is safer than many medications available, I do not think it is totally without risk, for a number of reasons. That being said, the real issue is, are the benefits worth the tradeoffs (whatever they may be)? Foe ME , in MY tank, the answer is maybe. If I knew i was battling ick or brook or something like that, you better believe I would use hypo. But, for me, in my tank, would I prophylactically dip every fish just because- my answer is no. Because I believe that hypo does have a negating effect (however miniscule it may be), amd in an otherwise healthy fish, I feel it is an unnecessary stress. Is it a good idea for everyone else to prophylactically dip every fish? I leave that up to others to decide. I wouldn't want people to think I am just a know it all, looking for trouble!:stupid:
 
LOL... here we go again!!! ;)


Yes, Panda did PM me to a few posts on wet web that said that it might not be totally safe but no data to back it up that I remember. Most of the posts were made by the staff and not by someone like Calfo, Pro, or Fenner. Add to that the fact that one of the posts was from 2003 if I remember and alot is more understood now.

This is the problem that I have ALWAYS had with Panda's point....
If I knew i was battling ick or brook or something like that, you better believe I would use hypo. But, for me, in my tank, would I prophylactically dip every fish just because- my answer is no.

I have been to EVERY fish store in the altanta metro area that I can find, sponsor or not.... I have seen active cases of Ich in EVERY display and every holding tank. So, if you bring home a fish and expect that you are not fighting a active Ich battle you are crazy!!! You are not prophylactically treating your fish at that time, you are treating something that you KNOW they have been exposed to even if they are not showing active signs. Lets say Panda had come in contact with Ebola from one of his kangaroos or monkeys. He comes to a meeting the next day and shakes my hand. The CDC knocks on my door 4 days later and tells me that Panda has Ebola and they want to QT me and start treatment to kill off anything that I MIGHT have gotten. Is that wrong? No you are treating the fact that I could have a illness and keeping me from spread it to others. Heck if I get pricked with a "dirty" needle what is the first thing the doctor is going to do? He is going to put me on AZT and keep me on it till he is sure that I have not contracted the HIV virus.

I see Ich as being no different then Ebola and HIV. It is just as easly spreadable and can be controled.
 
Perhaps the difference we have is due to my faith in fish immunoability. Your analogies make referneces to diseases that most people can't just "fight off"- ie HIV and Ebola (which I do not have, thank you). With those diseases, the chance of your immune system fighting them off without supportive therapy is very very low. Ick, on the other hand, I think fish can, and frequently do fight off. I think the smarter, safer, and more ethical way to deal with it is to treat (with whatever method), but it is very possible (and I might add very recuurant), that fish can beat off ick themselves- with good diet, clean water quality, and minimized stress. This has been done and reported by many hobbyists. So while I confess that most fish at the stores have likely been exposed to ick, and could possibly been infected, I dont think that is an automatic that they will contract the fatal symptoms and die without treatment. Should the fish start to show more severe symptoms of the disease, maybe my attitude will change.

In regards to the references, the majority were actually written by Fenner, who said whe would subject his fish to hyposalinity for ick due to the stress involved. I know, from my communications with you, that Fenner doesn't think hypo is a good treatrment for ick for certain reasons. I also had one from Shimek saying how it adversaly effects kidney function over prolonged periods.

As we have determined, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this matter. One of the core strongholds of my beliefs has to due with natural histories of these fish. There are some marine fish which will come to estuarine enviroments in their life cycle (ie- batfish, monos, etc), but most reef fish do not. If hyposaline environmnets were so dramatically beneficial, why over the past 200 million years has nature not selected for these fish to do so? Why aren't Fish only tanks suggested to run at 1.013? Why do we bring the salinity back up after treatment? These are the questions I would like answers to.
 
I won't go into the "he said he said" as anyone can go back and read that in the other thread. What I will say is that a well respected fellow reef keeper who has done quite a bit of research on this subject (more than any of us I would suspect), who cited several other sources including research to back up his statements basically reinforced Brandon and my opinion on this whole topic. Everything from making it easier for the fish to cope with acclimation, disease/parasite fighting and increasing the speed of healing wounds. A lot of his statements are opinions, but they are based on research and he IMO has more credibility on the subject than any of us.
 
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