Ich Thoughts

[Jarad]

So first tank, and of course first round of Ich. Happens, and knew it was a risk since we were working with only a display tank. Anyway, I was wondering about setting up a QT tank and using the actual water from the main tank for this purpose. It's fallow for now, and has been as I wait out the 72 days. If the theront stage only lasts in the water for 48 hours if no host is found, could I let the main display water lie fallow in the QT tank for say a week or so, and then be safe? More than willing to use a cycle starter for the QT tank, but thought this might work as well. Water only, no substrate/etc from the tank.

 

[FutureInterest]

99% of all reef tanks have ich in them. Yes, I'm just pulling that number out of my arse. My point is that its not a big deal. Keep the fish well fed and the tank will come into an equilibrium with ich such that you won't even see it on the fish. I never see any white spots but if I add a new fish it'll pop up again briefly and then go away again. If you think you have a particularly bad outbreak you can feed your fish medicated food that will kill the ich on them although some corals like fungia seem a bit sensitive to that treatment.

 

[Jarad]

Thanks Jin, and I agree with all of that. Just trying to minimize the risk for building a ready to go QT tank for the next round. I think the main issue for this round was an immature tank, and some really small clownfish that just werent ready for an outbreak. All told, some things to learn about, but not much I think could've been done without risking the main display. So I'd like to get he QT up and running, and was thinking about main display tank water being a better option than an additive. Maybe not though. Thanks!

 

[FutureInterest]

Aye, if you're dead set on doing the QT system then go with fresh made saltwater and look at Dr. Tim's for nitrogen cycling. Best of luck bud.

 

[Adam]

I've become more of a Ich management hobbyist rather than Ich eliminator. It got into my display though a Purple Tang that showed no signs for two weeks but shortly after introducing it there was an outbreak. There's no way I can catch all the fish to QT without breaking down the whole rock structure and catching them all. That will be highly stressful to the fish as well which will cause an explosion of the parasite. I still QT anything new and fatten them up with good feeding but I'm more looking for Velvet or something worse than Ich.

Feed well and increase the fish's immune system. You can also treat with Seachem Focus & Metro in the food you feed. This will kill any active trophont's attached to the fish. It won't eliminate the problem but it will give the fish relief relatively fast, which will limit scaring especially in the gills. It also won't harm the coral or most invertebrates. I did lose an urchin when I used it but I don't know if that was unrelated or not. All shrimp, snails, worms and coral are fine.

If you're going to go the full QT and elimination route then a better option would be Chloroquine depending on the type of fish and you'll need to get a script from a vet. There's a very good thread about it by Humblefish over on R2R. Here's another thread with treatment charts.

Using tank water for the QT is not an issue, per se, I absolutely do for my coral QT. For fish that you have and know there's ich I wouldn't worry about it. But for new fish that may not have it to begin with, then I'd start with a fresh batch of water and Biospira to seed it.

 

[Jarad]

Great points you two, and I do agree. I'm far from falling in love with the idea of eliminating it. Just wanting to minimize the risk as much as possible, while also getting a QT tank up for other reasons that might be pertinent later on. Thanks for the input.

The main idea was a thought experiment really based on the life cycle of Ich, and to get some thoughts on how likely terrible an idea it was. We'll see what happens.

 

[fishyfishy]

I think most people want to keep their display's ich free but over time, that nasty parasite eventually finds its way in, unless you are very vigilant, and even then need some luck. One time I got it, I was able to remove all the fish and leave it fallow for 72 days. Didn't see it till I added a blue tang, that I ran through qt but still brought it in. Then I couldn't break down the tank to catch everything, so went into ich management mode. Added a UV, used focus and metro, fed heavy and eventually it went into remission.

You can use water from the display to fill your qt, but it won't be "ich free" water, neither would new water either because the ich will be on the fish. If you are going to use copper it won't matter what water you use, the ich will get wiped out by the copper. I would change out the water every few days, monitor for ammonia. qt tanks are typically uncycled, I don't think bacteria survives copper either.

 

[Adam]

Copper at correct medication levels does not kill the nitrifying bacteria. If it got high enough to kill the bacteria you'd most likely kill the fish too, if it wasn't dead already.

I don't like treating fish right after receiving them and beyond Prazi I don't treat prophylacticly. I like to view them and see how they eat then treat based on any symptoms that appear. Now, I will most likely change my tune on that when I put up a new system to treat Tangs only and I'd use Chloroquine for them. Copper is much more fickle and a slight overdose will do more harm than good. Copper will also suppress the fish's appetite which can be counter productive to building up the strength and immune system of a new fish.

If a similar approach is used by anyone else. A new fish, that is not a Tang and doesn't have Ich, would be exposed to it right off the bat using water from a system known to have the parasite.

With Prazi, I like to use it at the very end of QT. It's a good dewormer but it will foam the water up if a small protein skimmer or air stone is used. Also, everytime I've used it it's created a large bacterial bloom in the tank.

 

[Jarad]

Thanks for all the extra details. I dont have any fish to work with right now, so we are in the 72 day fallow period atm. As such, I was exploring the idea of using the DT water to fill the QT tank, let it go for a week or so for any threonts to die off, and then be good to go without needing any extra bacterial boosts. That said, adding Dr. Tim's or something is fine, I was just thinking this through. I want to setup a QT anyway, so thought this might be a good start. Thanks for the Prazi details, as that was something I was looking at as well.

 

[Adam]

How are you planning to setup the QT tank & equipment wise?

 

[Jarad]

Really basic for now I think, as I'm still tank hunting. Was considering a 10 gallon AIO type tank if I can grab one cheap for Black Friday. Ultra basic from there with heater, PH, spare dry rock or PVC, and some treatment meds as needed/ifneeded. Dont think I'll go a skimmer route though on a temporary tank. Maybe an airstone, but not sure if that's advantageous or not. Thoughts?

 

[Adam]

A 10 to 20 gallon tank, a Heater, a cheap HOB filter and some PVC fittings are all you need.

Optional stuff would be a cheap light and small skimmer. The skimmer helps keep the tank cleaner so you need to do fewer water changes. I'm usually feeding pretty heavy in QT. I use one of these. But I've QT'd quite a few fish over the last two years. Another optional thing I would recommend is a small UV like this. If you decide to go bigger at some point these extras will come in handy.

If you put up a WTB thread here I'm sure you can find most of this stuff for much less than retail. Also Black Friday is next week...

 

[jwils27]

I have all of my fish in a QT now due to velvet. I luckily had a bunch of matrix already maturing in my sump and I have had no ammonia issues and that is with 15 fish in a 60 gallon QT. I currently run a hang on the back filter and a canister filter that are packed full with matrix. I got lucky and only lost one fish. In my opinion having a great biological filtration from the get go will save you. Matrix or marine pure are both great options for that. Other then that I have a heater, a $10 light from home depot, air stone, PVC, and an ammonia badge.

 

[Adam]

That's another great point @jwils27

This is the HOB Filter I bought.
I packed the basket & front box with as much Matrix as I could fit in there.

 

[infpalex]

I was worried about QT when I first started, but now I always QT my fish and treat them for ich and parasites right away. It has been a really great practice. Don't be afraid of doing it... you will never regret the feeling of KNOWING they are good. I have had my tank up and running for 3 1/2 years and not one ich spot or parasite issue because of all the hard work I put into it from the beginning.

 

[Jarad]

Found a good deal on 5 and 7 gallon tanks for a QT. A bit smaller, but the deal is pretty awesome. Thoughts on the limitations of a small tank like this for QC? I'm only going to be QT'ing small fish anyway with only a 45 gallon main, so other limitations on the size that I'm not thinking about?

 

[Adam]

Sorry, I just saw you're last post.

Those small tanks will only limit the number and size of the fish you can put it them. I wouldn't do more than two at a time in those. They would really make the TTM method for Ich a lot easier and for the Chloroquine method you's need a lot less. I'd definitely use Seachems ammonia alert badges in them too. A quick glance at the badge and you know if it's rising.
Also if you do use copper DO NOT USE Prime or any other ammonia reducing products. It makes the copper toxic!

 

[ichthyoid]

It's been my experience that cryptocaryon irritans is the biggest disease nemesis of saltwater fish & aquarists . I have found two methods which consistently manage it.
1- prophylactic treatment with quinine, in an isolated/hospital tank. Available from your Veterinarian or here-
http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Chloroquine-Phosphate-59567.Item.html
2- continuous use of a suitably sized UV filter, with a caveat- If there are fish already sick with cryptocaryon, immediately resort to #1 in an isolated/hospital tank.
A follow up dose with antibiotics may be needed to prevent post parasite infections, due to opportunistic bacteria. The above vendor site has antibiotics/advice also.

 

[gill]

FWIW, my issue with ich is the correlation to velvet, in terms of prophylactic treatment. If you aren't QT-ing for ich, you aren't QT-ing for velvet, either. And velvet will break your heart and drive you from the hobby. When you lose 15 fish in a week, it crushes you, it's not just some white spots and flashing.

It just takes time, patience, and care. Set up a dedicated QT (10 or 20 gallon petsmart special). Heck, keep it running and ghost feed at all times if you are worried about biological filter, or you can seed from your sump. Add bacteria supplement. Watch the fish every day. Pick copper or chloroqine phosphate (read up on both), and run it for 30 days in your QT once fish are stable and eating. They won't go into your display tank for 5-6 weeks after you get them. Patience. You are treating for velvet; ich eradication (or abatement) is the icing on the cake.

 

[ichthyoid]

I'm thinking you are referring to oodinium, which would share the honors with cryptocaryon in my book.
Both are single celled organisms. One is a dinoflagellate, the other a ciliated protozoa. Both can produce explosive growth in aquaria.
Such pathogens can wreak havoc on fish, especially those which may be stressed for a variety of reasons- eg, shipping, handling, competition/territoriality, sudden food change, temperature and/or chemical changes, injury, etc.,
Below is a link to an article I found to be informative and provides detailed instructions for dosing chloroquine. The author also mentions Uronema marinum which many/most of us may have dealt with along the way.
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/fish