Instant ocean salt mag probelms

rostato

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I must be doing something wrong here. I have been having a tough time keeping up my calcium, KH, and ph since the beginning of this tank. So I finally went and bought a salifert mag test kit and some mag.

Anyway. I tested my display water yesterday and it was only 1230:yuk:.

So I added a little mag, and then mixed up some new water for my water change today. Well, after testing the newly mixed up water I only got 900:yuk:. I did not believe it so I did it again, and got the same results. WTF! It will take half a **** bottle of mag to raise it to the levels I need.

Anyone else have these problems? Am I doing something wrong here? The test is pretty straight forward.

That would also help understand that on freshly mixed water I only get 320PPM calcium, KH of 9, and a Ph of 8.0

An ideas? I have not started to add mag to my change water, because I don't want to add that much mag powder. I figured I would do some school work and wait a while.
 
And thus, that is why IO is not recommended for a reef tank. It is designed to be fairly cheap, and low on minerals. It is perfect for fish only tanks, but if you want to reef, you will probably need to upgrade salts.
 
I use Seachem Reef, and it seems to have pretty good mineral content for the price ($45 ish bucks locally for a bucket)

Other good salts to look into include Tropic Marin Reef, Reef Crystals, and maybe MarineMix?
 
I guess I could go get some reef crystals. Thats about the only thing I can get locally (petsmart). This just makes me made because I have been try to get all my levels in check and spent a lot of money on additives for no reason...
 
Well, you may still need additives to adjust levels according to your tank. But to start out with a good salt that has more of them built in will greatly decrease the additional amounts needed.

YOu can also purchase salt online at Dr Fosters And Smith, and may be even cheaper, plus better selection. Or ask your Petsmart to carry the salt you want. I believe Petsmarts usually distribute seachem, so you might could get SC Reef throught them.
 
Good idea. What I saying about wasting money is that I have gone through a ton of calcium and alkalinity bottles trying to maintain levels and had no luck so far. Like 3 bottles of each.
 
There is no "perfect" salt mix and you'll have to add something to all of them or, worse, take something away. The reef mixes are not all that better than IO to justify their costs. IO is a bit "all over" for calcium and magnesium, but the other dogs have fleas too. Seachem Reef salt is a solid choice, but comes at a premium price.

Many people do a mix of salts to solve this problem. Here's an analysis from AWT on salt mixes:
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ares;227094 wrote: worst part of salt mixes, every batch is something new. all the testing in the world wont help you when your new bucket just sucks. :(

:lol2:
I miss the old FOWLR days!
 
ares;227094 wrote: worst part of salt mixes, every batch is something new. all the testing in the world wont help you when your new bucket just sucks. :(
Yep. Makes a compelling argument for cutting way back on regular water changes and doing other things like a denitrator or larger natural filtration.
 
Yeah after today I think I am going to stay with once a month changes. Now that I need to add so much crap.

I am just glad this bucket is almost gone.
 
What you're experiencing is completely normal. I'd be happy if I saw any salt with Mg of "only" 1230. Calcium of 320 and KH of 9 is perfectly to be expected.

As for "using half a bottle of Mg" - it takes a lot. I've used as much as 1 gallon of magnesium sulphate (dissolved in a bucket of RO and added over several days) to initially boost my magnesium from 1050 to 1350. Those little bottles they sell in the stores are a joke - the amount of usuable Mg in them is horribly low, and I don't think it'd make a dent on any system.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Calcium supplements! :)
 
corvettecris;227043 wrote: And thus, that is why IO is not recommended for a reef tank. It is designed to be fairly cheap, and low on minerals. It is perfect for fish only tanks, but if you want to reef, you will probably need to upgrade salts.
Funny, I have been using IO and supplementing the Calcium and alk with kalkwasser for water changes for about 15 years now with great success in stony reef husbandry, it has been one of the few salt mixes that has been consistent over the years... It's high in alk, one of the few areas I find a number of mixes to be deficient in, and the rest of the elements mix in at NSW values when mixed to S= 35 PPT. If your ASW is not at 35PPT ( SG=1.026@25<sup>o</sup>C), your Mg++ will be low by whatever percent of 35 PPT your salinity actually measures in at. for example, if you are running your salinity at 32PPT ( SG=1.0235-1.0240@25<sup>o</sup>C), then you should expect your Mg++ to measure at 10% below the Mg of NSW with a salinity of 35PPT, or a Mg = 1170 to 1200 PPM (mg/l) rather than 1300 PPM (actually it is 1290 PPM, but 1300 makes the math easy).

You can calculate molarity as well using SG if you want to do the math to check the values:

Molarity = Mole of Solute per 1 Liter of Solution

Mass = Volume x Density
Mass of 1 Liter of the Sea Water
= 1 Liter x ( 1000 ml / Liter ) x ( 1.026 g / ml )
= 1026 g

Mass of Magnesium ion in 1 Liter of Sea Water
= 1026 g x ( 1290 mg / 1 kg ) x ( 1 kg / 1000 g ) x ( 1g / 1000 mg )
= 1.323540 g ( in 1 Liter of Sea Water )

Number of Mole of Magnesium ion in 1 Liter of Sea Water
= 1.323540 g / ( 24.305 g / Mole )
= 0.054455661 Mole( in 1 Liter of Sea Water )

By Definition
Molarity of Magnesium ion = ~0.0544 M

Doing the same series of calcs for a SG of 1.0235 results in a molarity of
0.049010094 or ~0.0490M ( 10% less than 0.0544)

Remember that seawater displays a conservation of proportionality of the elements that make up its ionic composition, so that regardless of the salinity, the elements will always be in the same proportion to each other. Samples taken all over the world from different seas confirm this. See Millero's <u>Chemical Oceanography</u> for more info on this tenet of seawater.

In our tanks, these closed systems often get off in proportionality of the conservative elements as a result of biological sinking of some elements, or in the case of Mg++, get skewed as a result of the injudicious use of two part hermatypic supplements. When we use calcium CHLORIDE and SODIUM bicarbonate to supplement the hermatypic needs of stony corals, they use up the calcium and the bicarbonate to make skeletons, leaving behind the sodium and the chloride. Over time, this unused salt becomes a major component of the salinity of the tank. As we adjust the salinity down to make up for this accumulation of NaCl, we remove the Mg++, K+, sulfate, and borate/boric acid, etc. (usually by taking a gallon of the old water out and adding a gallon of RO/DI to drop the salinity). Over time this changes our mix from ASW to a brine primarily made up of sodium and chloride ions, of which Mg++ becomes an insignificant part of the mix (and no longer supports supersaturation quotients so we can have relatively high calcium in the presence of bicarbonate/carbonate).

If your intent is to compare the Mg++ levels of one salt mix to another, make sure that you compare apples to apples, and make your sample have a S=35 PPT.


Just to check, I mixed up some IO here just now to 35 PPT salinity (refractometer based at 80F) and tested with a Salifert kit; it came out with 1320 Mg++/l. I gueses IF I wanted to belabor the point, I could run a series of 10 tests starting over each time to get an average, but this was good enough for me in view of the fact that this is around what I usually see. I certinly don't want to start a long discussion here over the merits of each salt, but I DO want to point out that unless you make each batch of salt to the same salinity, using the same method of preparing the salinity and the salinity test, that you'll get different values for each test you run, even comparing IO to IO.


HTH
 
Yeah I understand what your saying. Just before I read this I went and retested my SG and it was low 1.022(refractometer), and I usually aim for 1.026. I think that I may have somehow messed up my SG reading earlier.

I need to go entertain the 4 year old for a bit then I will retest mag levels. I knew I was doing something wrong.
 
OK so at 80 degrees 1.025 SG I get 1110mg. And I added about 4 tsp of mag powder earlier today. So yeah I think my first test was correct. Maybe there is just a huge difference between buckets of IO:confused2:.

I think my eyes were playing tricks on me...

I swear the above is correct. I tested everything twice.
 
yes, any salt will work, however, with seachem reef you have to dose less because their levels at 35 are a lot higher. it all depends where you want to keep your levels and how much you want to dose.

In nano tanks doing weekly changes with minimum calcium requirements, you might not have to dose at all.


Aquatic Gardens
430 8 1240

CoraLife
560 9 1380

Crystal Sea Marinemix
340 9 1050

Crystal Sea Marinemix Bio-Assay
340 9 1050

Instant Ocean
350 12 1070

Kent
540 111200

Marine Environment
480 7.5 1450

Oceanic
580 8.5 1650

OceanPure
510 10 1320

Red Sea
400 8 1300

Red Sea Coral Pro
490 7 1300

Reef Crystals
420 12 1260

SeaChem Marine Salt
500 10 1400

SeaChem Reef Salt
540 10 1450

Tropic Marin
375 10 1230

Tropic Marin Pro Reef
450 8.5 1380

Tunze Reef Salt
420 9.5 1350
 
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