Ok so after reading a couple diffrent threads I am still not sure i understand. I have read that i can supplement some of my live rock with base rock. So i am just wondering does this meen that if i need 100lbs of live rock in my system i can buy 75lbs of base rock and 25lbs of live rock and all the base rock will become live? Also i have been looking around online and it seems like if i need to buy all live rock it is going to be realy expensive. I have been seeing prices from 4-11$ a pound. that is a huge price diferance how do you know what to get?
Live Rock Question
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I have to disagree with Dawg a bit here. Most of the micro and macro organisms that make rock "live" propagate fast enough that it is not really that big of a deal. Within a month of proper cycling there should really be no problem. Heck, it takes so long for a tank to "season" after the cycle anyways that all the arguments that Dawg make hold true if you did not use any base rock what so ever.
You can check out some places online and on e-bay. You can find rock for about $1.50-$2/lb... Shipping is about $50 though. Problem that I found is two fold: 1) it is uncured but if you are starting a new tank, that really does not matter. 2) most of the pieces are round boulders and not shelf or any premium pieces. What I would do is order about 50-75# online and then hand pick the other.
You can check out some places online and on e-bay. You can find rock for about $1.50-$2/lb... Shipping is about $50 though. Problem that I found is two fold: 1) it is uncured but if you are starting a new tank, that really does not matter. 2) most of the pieces are round boulders and not shelf or any premium pieces. What I would do is order about 50-75# online and then hand pick the other.
Well i am deffinatly ok with taking my time since i am still learning. But i also like the idea of getting some extra life from diffrent live rock. thank you for the response i will check out that store. It is about 2 1/2 hours away from me is it worth the drive and gas money or would i be better getting something from an online store?
If your getting LR, yea its worth it. I live in henry county, and blue planet is a great place, but no store can match SWC's $3/lb live rock. So if you're going to buy a lot, its really worth it. If only a few pieces...still, it's cheaper than shipping (unless your free time is super valuable).
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I sure can... What makes your LR "live"? Seriously... Bacteria? Well with a proper cure and cycle you have the bacteria even if you start with "base rock". Is it pod and worm life that makes it live? They will move and multiply anywhere they can. Is it macro and/or micro-algae that makes it live? Ok you might have me a bit here but the average tank is not set up to culture micro and macro algae in the DT anyways so it is kind of a mute point. Either way you slice it, I find very little advantage to starting off with all LR if you are going to let the tank have a full cycle anyways! Same thing goes for the whole "live" sand in a bag hoax! You can not tell me that you believe a tank with home made LR is inferior to a tank with natural "live" rock, can you? Heck, most of the time within about two or three months you can not tell the difference between the two!
Hell, I can make one good argument for starting off with ALL base and dead rock.... You can control what life you let the rock be "live" with. You do not have to worry about having the aiptasia battle or worry about getting a mantis shrimp.
Don't get me wrong, I think that being able to pick out your pieces is worth $3/lb any day of the week, but that is besides the point. The question is could he substitute BR for LR and be the same in the end... My answer is yes!
Of course there might be another centerville in this state. 
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Sorry I forgot to answer this question too... Look for "Marshall Island" or "Fiji" live rock. As Barbra said, Caribbean LR is really dense and heavy for what you get. Tonga is light but branchy and some people find it hard to deal with. Marshall Island is better then Fiji, IMHO, but it is more expensive. Just know that all LR is not the same from different parts of the world.You want the most porous stuff that you can find since it has the best surface area.
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It might be the Centerville that is located between Warner Robins and Macon- that would make him about 2 1/2 hours from Sal...
Either way- Welcome!!
Either way- Welcome!!
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Ya, that is pretty much what I am saying...
First we need to look at the cycle of bacteria.
In autecological studies, bacterial growth in batch culture can be modeled with four different phases: lag phase (A), exponential or log phase (B), stationary phase (C), and death phase (D).
<ol>
<li>During lag phase</em>, bacteria adapt themselves to growth conditions. It is the period where the individual bacteria are maturing and not yet able to divide. During the lag phase of the bacterial growth cycle, synthesis of RNA, enzymes and other molecules occurs.</li>
<li>Exponential phase</em> (sometimes called the log phase)is a period characterized by cell doubling. The number of new bacteria appearing per unit time is proportional to the present population. If growth is not limited, doubling will continue at a constant rate so both the number of cells and the rate of population increase doubles with each consecutive time period. For this type of exponential growth, plotting the natural logarithm of cell number against time producing a straight line. The slope of this line is the specific growth rate of the organism, which is a measure of the number of divisions per cell per unit time.<span style="color: #800080;"> </span>The actual rate of this growth (i.e. the slope of the line in the figure) depends upon the growth conditions, which affect the frequency of cell division events and the probability of both daughter cells surviving. Exponential growth cannot continue indefinitely, however, because the medium is soon depleted of nutrients and enriched with wastes.</li>
<li>During stationary phase</em>, the growth rate slows as a result of nutrient depletion and accumulation of toxic products. This phase is reached as the bacteria begin to exhaust the resources that are available to them.</li>
<li>At death phase</em>, bacteria run out of nutrients and die.</li>
</ol>So lets put it to the test...
<u>LR Vs. Uncured rock</u>
Ok, so lets say you go to the LFS and pick out all your LR. You bring it home, covered in water and place it in your brand new set-up. You do not feed, add bacteria or do anything else to the tank. You notice there is no cycle. Great right? Maybe, maybe not... You started with 10,000,000 Bacteria lets say. You ended with 10,000,000 OR LESS.... Since you started in Phase 3 and maybe moved into Phase 4.
Now lets say that you started with 100% uncured rock. You get it in the mail and put it into the tank. It still had bacteria on it but for the sake of giving you an edge lets say that we started with 1,000,000 Bacteria (instead of 10,000,000). Because the rock is uncured, we are adding ammonia to the tank (food for the bacteria). In the course of a month, my ending bacteria population could be well over 10,000,000,000 due to the fact that I started my tank in Phase 1 or even Phase 2 of the bacteria cycle.
So which is the clear winner in this situation? Granted, there are more factors that go into it then this small sample but in most every case, at the end of the month, the tank done with uncured LR is going to be the clear winner.
Now in either case, I would not suggest that a person with a newly cycled tank dump a whole bunch of livestock into it right off the bat. Phase 1 of the bacteria life cycle shows us that this would be bad no matter how you started the tank. But adding a bit too much food like you suggest or anything else would hardly cause a tank crash and even if it could, it would be less likely to cause the same problems in a tank started with uncured rock then a tank started with cured rock (or rock cured outside the tank). I have more bacteria in the end then you do!
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Oh ya... I forgot to add... At any rate it would not matter after about 60 days. If we stocked out tanks the same and in theory if each fish produced the same waste and we had the same waste from food, our bacteria levels would be about the same in the end. The bacteria levels would level out due to the same amount of food. So my 10,000,000,000 would die due to lack of food if I only had enough food to support 10,000,000. So in the end, it is a pretty mute point.
This is why a tank running Fallow for more then about 45 days might experience a cycle when the fish are added back in or why, it is not a good idea to add too many fish at one time no matter how old your tank is!
This is why a tank running Fallow for more then about 45 days might experience a cycle when the fish are added back in or why, it is not a good idea to add too many fish at one time no matter how old your tank is!
Ya i am south of macon just outside of warner robins. It looks like all the good stores are going to be a little bit of a drive for me which is no big deal. As i said i am just starting out so i have plenty of time to research and learn what is going to be best.
Ok let me see if i follow. I Think Xyzp you are talking about uncured LR but this is different than base rock right? Uncured is still Live but needs a good long cycle due to the dead stuff that is on it right? And base rock is completly dead right it has been out of water and dried up? So the conclusion is if i am willing to let my tank cycle for about 6-10 weeks and suplement it with addatives i could use half base rock and half LR right?
Sorry for spelling i know i can't spell for the live of me.
Sorry for spelling i know i can't spell for the live of me.
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Ya, Sorry cook, I got a bit off topic there. First off, let me say thing I think you have made the BEST choice you could have already. Deciding to take things slow, research and make up your own mind will pay dividends later down the road for you.
Without getting to far into it again, yes you follow what my opinion on the subject is and what the science holds to be true. As with anything else in this hobby, it is open to debate.
If you have the time here is what I would do.. Start your tank with as much of a ratio of Baserock to live rock as you want. 50:50, 75:25, or 0:100. Whatever you want, it really does not matter. I guarantee you will not see a problem with it down the road. Take my personal tank for instance. I started with rock that was about 8 years old that was sitting in my garage. I added about 75lbs of it to my 55gal tank along with about 50lbs of uncured "live" rock. Within 2 months you could not tell which was which. I also guarantee (granted I use other methods as well) that I have one of the strongest bacterial populations of anyone with my same tank size.
Like I said before... Pick up either Fiji or Marshall Island rock as it has the most surface area out of most any rock on the market. As a side option, since you are in no hurry, you might want to consider making your own rock. For about $.50/lb you can have rock in any shape, style, and size that you want. As an added bonus, you can pat yourself on the back that you were helping to save the planet by not taking rock from the ocean and that you have an "eco-friendly" tank.
Without getting to far into it again, yes you follow what my opinion on the subject is and what the science holds to be true. As with anything else in this hobby, it is open to debate.
If you have the time here is what I would do.. Start your tank with as much of a ratio of Baserock to live rock as you want. 50:50, 75:25, or 0:100. Whatever you want, it really does not matter. I guarantee you will not see a problem with it down the road. Take my personal tank for instance. I started with rock that was about 8 years old that was sitting in my garage. I added about 75lbs of it to my 55gal tank along with about 50lbs of uncured "live" rock. Within 2 months you could not tell which was which. I also guarantee (granted I use other methods as well) that I have one of the strongest bacterial populations of anyone with my same tank size.
Like I said before... Pick up either Fiji or Marshall Island rock as it has the most surface area out of most any rock on the market. As a side option, since you are in no hurry, you might want to consider making your own rock. For about $.50/lb you can have rock in any shape, style, and size that you want. As an added bonus, you can pat yourself on the back that you were helping to save the planet by not taking rock from the ocean and that you have an "eco-friendly" tank.
Thank you so much for all the responses. I bought a couple books but they realy don't go into great detail about LR except that it is good to use and why it is good (bialogical filter and all that good stuff). I also started doing a little research about makeing my own rock after seeing a artical on it. I like the idea of being able to make rock what ever shape and size i want. The only down side i see about making my own would be you wouldn't get any of the extras that you can sometimes get with LR.
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What books are you reading?!? Might I suggest: http://www.amazon.com/Conscientious-Marine-Aquarist-Commonsense-Successful/dp/1890087025/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1212672221&sr=8-2">This one</a>, [IMG]http://www.amazon.com/Conscientious-Marine-Aquarist-Commonsense-Successful/dp/1890087998/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212672221&sr=8-1">This one (the newer edition)</a>, [IMG]http://www.amazon.com/Reef-Invertebrates-Essential-Selection-Compatibility/dp/0967263034/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212672378&sr=1-2">This one</a>, [IMG]http://www.amazon.com/Aquarium-Corals-Selection-Husbandry-Natural/dp/1890087483/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212672417&sr=1-1">and this one</a>. You might also want to check out two sites to get most of your reading from: [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/www.wetwebmedia.com">Wetwebmedia</a> and [IMG]http://www.melevsreef.com/">Melevsreef.com</a>.
Hope that is enough reading to keep you busy for a LONG while. I know the Wetwebmedia site is hard to navigate but worth trying to.
As far as getting extras on your rock after making it. there is no real problem with that. If you seed your aquarium correctly, from an established tank, you will have all the life that anyone else has. You might want to look at [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/www.garf.org">GARF</a> for some write-ups on the subject.
Hope that is enough reading to keep you busy for a LONG while. I know the Wetwebmedia site is hard to navigate but worth trying to.
As far as getting extras on your rock after making it. there is no real problem with that. If you seed your aquarium correctly, from an established tank, you will have all the life that anyone else has. You might want to look at [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/www.garf.org">GARF</a> for some write-ups on the subject.
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Ya, I just spoke with Bob Fenner tonight on the phone. I did not know he had a new edition of his book finally coming out until I was looking it up for you (just released a few days ago). He is super excited about it and I can not wait till I can get my hands on a copy to give it a good once over.
It sounds like you got a good start on the research that you need to make a good start. Those of us who have been around awhile realize that the only difference between a successful tank and getting out of the hobby is how much you understand what is going on. Reef tanks are not hard, you just have to be willing to learn! Again, sounds like you are off to a good start!
It sounds like you got a good start on the research that you need to make a good start. Those of us who have been around awhile realize that the only difference between a successful tank and getting out of the hobby is how much you understand what is going on. Reef tanks are not hard, you just have to be willing to learn! Again, sounds like you are off to a good start!
