New Tank - 2nd Floor

[jd22]

I'm moving in the next couple of weeks and will be purchasing a new tank for the house. I was thinking of putting a 120 with a sump on the 2nd floor in the office/study. I know there has been some discussion on how much weight can go on the second floor. Any thoughts? The house was built in 2006 and I think I could probably have the tank running against an outside wall but not sure yet.

Given it would be a pretty large tank on the second floor, how does everyone insure their tank (or do they)? I spoke with USAA and they were somewhat coy on whether an accident would be covered or not.

 

[jcook54]

Wow. O.k., I'll bite. There are a lot of factors that go into making this decision but if I were in our shoes, here's what I'd look for.

1. The tank and stand (no stands with feet) need to be oriented perpendicular to the floor joists. That's pretty much a must and if it's going against and outside wall, you should be good. It's still a good idea to got to the ceiling on the first floor, pull down a light fixture, fan or whatever else might be able to give you a peek behind the sheet rock and double check.
2. Check to see if your house was built with engineered trusses. They look like a wooden "I" beam and have penetration points for plumbers and electricians to run wire through. If not, see if you can stick a piece of wire between a box in the 1st floor ceiling and touch the underside of the floor above. This will give you a measurement on what exactly was used to make the floor system. (i.e. if you straighten a hanger and run it up between a light box and the sheetrock, it'll measure something like 8" if it's a 2x8 joist and 9" if it's a 2x10).
3. Don't place it too close to any HVAC vents. Floor system are designed to hold A LOT more weight than they ever will because wood cracks, wood bends and mechanical installers will cut right through floor joists to make their particular job easier.

All-glass gives a general weight of a 125g at 1400 lbs. Add to that the sump and live rock and some room for error and we're looking at a pretty substantial weight. IF it's perpendicular to the floor joists over a load bearing wall, you should be alright but, man, I wouldn't do it personally. I built houses for a lot of year and have seen some stunning things done to framing. It should be just fine but you're right in that head scratcher area in terms of weight. Want a 90g cube? You'd be great. A 180g? Not advisable. But the 120 is right in that sweet spot where there's always going to be a certain pucker factor.

 

[jcook54]

Better yet, let me tell you what I did at my house. I set up a 120g system on the first floor over my crawl space. It was going to be right up against the sill sitting on the cinder block foundations with 2x10 yellow pine floor joists. It probably would have been find but my panel box was close and a lot of the joists had all kinds of wires punched through them. I had all the information I needed easily available to make a decision based on my own experience and education and what did I do?

I added a small doubled up 2x8 beam supported by steel jacks just to be safe.

 

[Adam]

Jin @FutureInterest has/had a 180 in his bedroom on the second floor. He might have more info. When I move I'm planning on putting my 210 on the main floor over the basement.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[FutureInterest]

Had. I picked up a 8 footer but that is being installed on the first floor in my living room. No supports will be underneath it... That tank is only 16 inches tall and is acrylic so the overall weight per square inch is less than my 180 was.

My floor joists are 2x12 and I put the tank against a supporting wall with the joists going perpendicular to the length of the tank. It could've held a lot larger of a tank frankly. As for insurance... there really isn't any good ones out there that will cover it. I do know folks that have gotten the damage covered though... but its fraudulent and I don't recommend it. If you want more details feel free to pm me.

 

[enderg60]

I wouldnt even worry about a 120 gallon on a second floor as long as it was against a load bearing wall.

I have a 300 gallon that sits on a wall but the joists are running perpendicular to the tank so it works fine. New house will have a 330g but the joists are running parallel to the tank, and its not near a load bearing wall so Ill be adding some supports under the tank.

As far as insurance goes, they will not cover anything tank related. Your best hope is the damage to your house is covered under flood insurance. the tank and the livestock will not be insured under your home insurance. you would need to get separate specialized insurance for it, and so far I have not heard of anyone that does it.

 

[ichthyoid]

If you are really concerned about damage-
Ask your agent, or another company if yours declines, to write a specific rider to cover the tank and damages. They may want to know how many gallons, etc.

In the end, could your floor support 10 grown men? Because that’s the kind of weight a 120 gal reef with stand, sump, etc. will weigh, including a 50% safety margin-
~ 2000 lbs./ 1 ton

The math-
120 gal x 8.3 lb/gal = 996 + + +


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jd22]

Thanks for some of the insight. I'm pretty sure I can have this on an outside wall but it would be a side wall, does that make a difference? It would be over a garage but not over the garage opening. I think it would likely be fine myself but maybe I'll go a little smaller to ensure it's safety. Honestly, I think I'm more nervous about the insurance aspect. I can't find any third parties which offer this type of insurance and without a definitive answer, just makes me nervous.

 

[jd22]

Any times for finding out which way the beams are going?

 

[AquariumSchmo]

I would like to add a question to the group that might help you. Do the beams that you can see from up in the attic generally run the same direction as the beams between the first and second floor? If so, that would be an easy way to tell. That's something I was wondering recently while thinking about putting a bigger tank on the second floor as well.

 

[ichthyoid]

Get a ladder and tap back & forth on the ceiling of the garage with your knuckle. As you pass over the joists, the frequency will increase (higher pitch sound).
Go back & forth in one direction, then do the same at a 90 degree angle to the first direction. One of them will reveal the above sound pattern & beam direction.
Tap along the suspected beam line for confirmation.
Or, just buy an electronic stud finder & use it, if in doubt.
You can make small marks with a pencil & measure the separation, if desired. The joists should be 16 inches apart. After, you can erase the pencil marks.

 

[ichthyoid]

"Do the beams that you can see from up in the attic generally run the same direction as the beams between the first and second floor?"

I wouldn't bet on it!

 

[Adam]

Nothing is ever certain till you put your eyes on it...

Generally the floor joists will be in the same direction on the second floor as they are from what you see in the basement or crawlspace. Which is usually left/right when facing the front of the house.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[enderg60]

Thanks for some of the insight. I'm pretty sure I can have this on an outside wall but it would be a side wall, does that make a difference? It would be over a garage but not over the garage opening. I think it would likely be fine myself but maybe I'll go a little smaller to ensure it's safety. Honestly, I think I'm more nervous about the insurance aspect. I can't find any third parties which offer this type of insurance and without a definitive answer, just makes me nervous.

Exterior walls are load bearing so you will be good there. You wont find anyone willing to give you an answer. I tried a while back, they dont want to say its not covered and loose a customer but they wont say its covered. best you get is "I had a flood, fix the house"

And you can always just pickup a stud finder, they are like $6. Plus you then get to use it on yourself.

 

[Steve Burton]

+1 on stud finder

 

[hzheng33]

if you can run your tank perpendicular to the joists, you are almost home free but let you tell you my experience.

each of my engineer i-beam has giant holes in them (8inches in diameter). it's speculated that this is for duct work but we will never know.

my 150gal 5x2x2 runs parallel to the joists and i also made the stand and canopy myself out of 2x4, 2x6 and 3/4" plywood. i think have 2-3 tons over the span of 65" of space. i placed the tank and stand on 2 joists near the load bearing wall on one end. on the other end, i have 2 jack posts, each supporting 1 of the 2 joists. i also sandwiched each of the i-joists with 2x8 or 2x10 to patch up the holes previously mentioned.

so far, the tank has been on that location for 2+years and no issue. knock on wood.

 

[jd22]

I think I'm going to go with a 90 gallon and sump so I think I should be okay. Will run on an external wall which with perpendicular joists I believe.

 

[sergeantpup]

This thread has a lot of really great information and has given me some things to investigate. I'm planning to put a RS 650P on my second floor and I'm trying to get my ducks in a row. My floor joists run perpendicular to the tank placement and there's a wall in the basement that will run perpendicular directly underneath the tank. The tank wouldn't be on an exterior wall but at the edge of the floor next to the staircase. There SHOULD be a giant beam directly under the tank.

I'd like to hire a structural engineer to come out and give me the OK or tell me I need more support. I didn't see anyone on this thread mentioning they did that. Has anybody done this? If there's an engineer in the area who's at least assessed for a fish tank once, I'd like to start my search, there. By my estimate, I'd say the complete tank will be about 2,500-2,800 lbs. Anybody have engineering suggestions? Would our LFS's who install tanks have a "go to" guy/company?

 

[sharis100]

We used peach state building consultants MD Muntean PE to assess for us.

 

[jd22]

Just as a follow-up, I ended up putting the tank in the basement, however, it wasn't really about the weight of the tank as much the worry of a large leak or plumbing issue. I had my uncle, who is a structural engineer take a look and he said given where the tank was, it was well within the safe zone but as mentioned, it was an outside wall with I think 14 foot joists running perpendicular to the tank.