New Years resolution: GHA Annihilation

Yeah I might consider that as well. My problem is I haven't gotten a nitrate or phosphate reading EVER. I'm using an API nitrate test and a salifert phosphate test. I know the nutrients HAVE to be there but I can't see them. So I'm hesitant to dose anything.


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That's because the nutrients are being consumed by the algae. The bacteria spurred by the carbon utilize those same nutrients before the algae - starving it out.

Your scenario of "tons of algae, but no NO3/PO4" is pretty common. Search on wet web media for queries like yours.
 
I know. I posted that before. But over the past 20 days there has been no algae in the tank as we physically removed it all. And still no readings at all. If there's no algae, what else is keeping these nutrients out of the water column?


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No it's just starting to come back now. And there's nowhere near the amount now as there was. Since I haven't changed anything else (water change schedule, feeding regimen, etc) it stands to reason that the source hasn't changed so the amount of nutrients would be the same.
And if that's the case then without algae to soak up the nutrients where are they?


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I can't explain the numbers; good question. But, I do know the resurgence of algae means there are nutrients available to consume.

In a sense, at least to me, the question of how isn't really relevant. :)
Just got to fix the problem!
 
McPhock;928236 wrote: I can't explain the numbers; good question. But, I do know the resurgence of algae means there are nutrients available to consume.

In a sense, at least to me, the question of how isn't really relevant. :)
Just got to fix the problem!


Right but I need to find the problem to do that. Is it user error, rock saturation?
Would you just start dosing vodka? It worries me treating something when I don't have any facts.


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Let's back up a bit.

After the big manual removal 3 weeks ago, what did you do next?

How often were the water changes, and what percentage?

What fish/corals do you have, how much do you feed them, and how often?

While there may be some nutrients leaching out of the rock (or there might not be...), the first thing is to figure out what is feeding it, and address that.

Meanwhile, manually remove what recurs.

I've fought many battles with hair algae over the years - there are plenty of techniques out there, but in my experience, no matter what techniques you use, the basics are always the same:

1) Identify the cause and deal with that. Overfeeding is usually the root cause at some point in the tank's lifespan, even if it means the rock got saturated with crap over time.

2) Manually remove as much of the stuff as you can. That might mean tearing it down and scrubbing it a few times until you get the upper hand. Yes, it's a pain, but it works. I'd use the waste water from a water change, get a toothbrush and scrub off each rock and give it a swirly in the waste water, to knock off the loose algae, and any detritus settled in the rock. You might be surprised at how much crap settles.

3) Water change. Small amounts, but frequent. If too much food was the problem, you aren't changing enough water.

4) Vacuum the substrate (unless you have a deep sand bed, which I don't recommend). Every time. You don't have to vacuum every inch of the sand bed every time, but vacuum at least a section, if not more, each time. Gravity even works under water and poop lands on the rocks and in the sand. Also, fan the rocks with your hands, or aim a powerhead or turkey baster at the rocks to dislodge the crud when water changing. Too many people either just scoop out water or siphon water off the top, and don't get to the actual solid waste.

Part of the function of a water change, is to get rid of the junk that will otherwise rot and become phosphate and nitrate.

4) Once you finally get the upper hand - don't revert to the old habits that got it hairy in the first place. I've seen that happen too many times. You shouldn't have to do several water changes a week forever, but you will have to keep a close eye on parameters to figure out the balance of waste to water changes for your tank, to keep the parameters where they need to be in order to keep your inhabitants properly nourished, but not let the pollution spawn more algae.

Jenn
 
Ok I'll try to get all this answered. The livestock is 1 yellow tang, 1 blue tang, 1 clown, 1 wrasse, 2 firefish, 1 lawnmower, 2 chromis, 1 coral banded shrimp, a handful of snails, and about 15-20 hermits. Also maybe a pistol. I saw him during the cleaning but not since which isn't rare. Lots of corals, all fairly small. Mostly "easy" stuff
I feed 1-3 times a day depending on how much I'm home. Small amounts of flake and NLS Spectrum pellets. Once a week I give them LRS Frenzy but once I'm out of that I'll quit feeding it altogether.
Since the big removal I do a 20 gallon water change weekly right after the frenzy feeding. I change the filter every other day and my lights are on a total of 10 hours a day but they ramp up and down so they're maxed about 4 hours. Also they're LEDs.
I don't vacuum the sand bed which is very shallow but I stir it up often to knock out the algae growing in it. I will start doing that next water change.
Also I keep changing the gfo but I don't know how useful that is since I've never gotten a reading on phosphates at all. The test I'm using is a new API. Not the best but it should show SOMETHING right?
So I'll keep with the manual removal and other assorted duties and hope.



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JDWells;928661 wrote:
I feed 1-3 times a day depending on how much I'm home. Small amounts of flake and NLS Spectrum pellets. Once a week I give them LRS Frenzy but once I'm out of that I'll quit feeding it altogether.

IMO you're over-feeding. I wouldn't quit the frozen, it's cleaner and more nutritious. Spectrum pellets are good, but flake and pellet contains more phosphate and junk.

What size tank is it?

Jenn
 
Yep I forgot tank size. It's a 90 display with about 40 in the sump. It's a 55 I converted.
From what I understand the chromis need to be fed at least a couple times a day. Is that wrong?
The reason I wanted to quit using LRS is two fold. One, I have no self control with it and so I start feeding corals which I live to do but ends up being messy. Two, I've been reading about garlic and other terrestrial vegetables being bad for long term health of the fish. Also I make sure that almost all of the food gets eaten by the fish, what doesn't, the hermits and my CBS are on it in seconds.
So I have a question in that regard. Is over feeding bad because of the amount of waste the fish put out or just because of the amount of food that doesn't get eaten?
Again thanks so much for your input and patience.



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I'd cut back the feeding to once daily and eliminate the flake. You could add some algae sheets, kale, broccoli, spinach or other greens to the diet. That gives the tangs something to graze on longer and might make you feel better about not feeding them as often.

Also, I would get more snails and a variety of them. Nasarious, cerith, astreas, are all good.
Good luck and listen to Jenn. She knows all! Hi, Jenn. Miss ya. Hope your doing well.
 
Shrimpy Brains;928727 wrote: I'd cut back the feeding to once daily and eliminate the flake. You could add some algae sheets, kale, broccoli, spinach or other greens to the diet. That gives the tangs something to graze on longer and might make you feel better about not feeding them as often.

Also, I would get more snails and a variety of them. Nasarious, cerith, astreas, are all good.
Good luck and listen to Jenn. She knows all! Hi, Jenn. Miss ya. Hope your doing well.


Ok I'll cut back the feeding to once at night when I get home work and I'll get rid of the flake.
My only problem with algae sheets is that my hermits go nuts and take it over. The tangs get some but it's mostly the hermits.
I want to stay away from terrestrial vegetables but I'll do more sheets. Maybe twice a week?
And I was thinking I would get more snails. I'll probably do that this weekend.


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Hi, Amy! :) Things are good here - hope it is with you too!

I always fed about every other day... for pretty much everything except Anthias, then daily feedings of small amounts.

Where are you hearing that garlic is bad? Generally, I'd agree that terrestrial foods aren't necessarily good, since they wouldn't find them in the wild, but the garlic is used as an additive, not as the main part of the food, and so many manufacturers are using it or making supplements with it, I can't see it being bad. We used it routinely.

So you're feeding more than "average", and you aren't vacuuming the substrate. Food, whether it's eaten or not, ends up in the sand/rock... either as leftovers or somebody's poop, whether it's fish, coral poop or invert poop... and what goes up, must come down so while the filter catches some, plenty ends up in the substrate or rocks.

It's not being cleaned up (ie vacuumed)...stirring into the water column allows a filter to catch some... but what happens to the rest? Refer back to the law of gravity.

Yes, beneficial bacteria break some of it down... but "everybody poops"... so even if it's broken down further, it always comes back to poop (!).

So by vacuuming the substrate - you may be surprised at how much solid waste is hidden in the sand. Fan up the detritus off the rocks - some will settle back on rock and some into the sand where you can vacuum it... or if you break the tank down to scrub again, make sure you give those rocks a good swirly in the bucket of waste water to dislodge the crud and shed it into the waste water.

It's not a perfect technique - you're never going to get all of it (and more is generated daily)... but getting most of it will cut the algae's food source somewhat.

There's nothing wrong with feeding generously - as long as the amount of cleanup is equal to or more than the amount of waste being produced.

Picture the waste as if it was trash. The fish eat, poop, maybe some food is left uneaten. It's litter dispersed all over the tank. Beneficial bacteria sort that trash, and some of it they can recycle, and the rest is left there for you to take out, by vacuuming and changing water (because some waste is dissolved, and some is not).

You're giving the fish enough food to generate 3 bags of trash per week. The bacteria process, say, one bag. That leaves 2 bags for you to take out to the curb. Thing is, you're only picking up one bag. At first, that spare bag is no biggie... but then the next week, there are 2 bags left, then 3... before too long the house looks like something out of, "Hoarders".

Typically excess waste can show up as high levels of phosphate and nitrate... but in your case (and many others' cases), algae grow and they use up those nutrients like fertilizer on your lawn. So water looks clear, tests come out within acceptable ranges, but the forest of algae becomes such a nuisance... The algae are unsightly but they're actually doing you a favour.

So the answer is to cut back on garbage in and/or increase garbage out. Want to keep feeding a lot? OK... but you'll need to step up water changes to keep up.

Hopefully the visual analogy of the 'trash' is helpful in understanding what's going on.

Using the same visual... it's better to do small water changes more frequently, than larger ones at larger intervals. It's better to take out a small bag of trash every day (or few days, etc.), than to let it build up in the house, and then take a huge, smelly load of trash out once every 2 weeks or so.

Jenn
 
Oh I forgot to say also that when I do the water changes, I use the hose to knock crap off the rocks but that's probably just knocking it into the sand which I don't vacuum. So I guess my solution is keep up manual removal, feed a little less, and start vacuuming.


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