Next Phase of Dino Battle

[jmcdona6]

I have been battling dinos for the last several weeks. I have been able to manage them slightly but nothing seems to knock them out or down to acceptable levels. So far have tried in various combinations reduced photoperiods, blackouts, bacteria dosing, constant filter sock changing, blowing off rocks, not blowing off rocks, ph elevation...I have never had 0 nutrients (always have kept about .1 phosphate and 2-4 nitrate) so I didn't really want to try raising them artificially any further as some suggest. Definitely a prime example of how you don't have to be reading zeros in your nutrients to get bit by dinos.

I microscope confirmed them as the Ostreopsis variety, which the community at large has found success using UV to combat. Finally broke down and invested in a UV. I have it temporarily ran to my main display until I can find a good sump mounting solution. As you can see in my picture, I couldn't find the duct dape lol

Funny, my Acropora have been taking off during all this. Its my soft corals that are upset. I think its because the dino snot sticks to their polyps much more and don't blow off easily. I have a gorgonian that hasn't really opened up in probably two weeks save a few random polyps here or there.

 

[Dmitri]

At first look, your phosphates are a bit high, ideally you want to keep them under 0.03ppm
Double check your phosphate levels. If it’s that high you can do the following:

Quick solution would be, run a bit of GFO and that should drop the levels. Read up on how much GFO you would need and cut it by 1/2 to start with in the reactor.

Also do strategic water changes where you can siphon out as much of the nasty algae out as possible.

 

[jmcdona6]

Sorry forgot a zero.

.01***

 

[timeconsumer]

Honestly my ostreopsis problems when I had them forever ago I believe stemmed from phosphates dropping too low. They are so efficient they can outcompete anything at that point for whatever tiny phosphates are available.

You might consider running a blackout for a few days with the UV on. Ostreopsis release from their mucus into the water column during dark periods which will give them more contact time with the UV.

 

[Dmitri]

Have you tried this product?

 

[jmcdona6]

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Honestly my ostreopsis problems when I had them forever ago I believe stemmed from phosphates dropping too low. They are so efficient they can outcompete anything at that point for whatever tiny phosphates are available.

You might consider running a blackout for a few days with the UV on. Ostreopsis release from their mucus into the water column during dark periods which will give them more contact time with the UV.

Thats my plan, going to let it run tonight to see what the next photo period brings. Depending on the results I will do another blackout to see if the combo helps.

As for phosphates, you know that's the thing. Some people say you need to clean obsessively, of course, this will bring your nutrients too low. Others say load on the nutrients to allow other algae to outcompete. My nutrients have always been in a fairly happy and stable place. Its not off the table, but I would rather not destroy my history of healthy nutrient stability just for a chance of getting rid of dinos. I mean, could cause just as many problems as it solves, if it solves anything.

In response to Dmitri, I have tried siphoning and still do every so often. Most of my dinos are controlled to the point its not loose anymore but just a film stuck close to the rock or soft corals. If I ever see a real snotty patch I either siphon it out or scrub it off so it goes down into the filter sock. I tried scrubbing and siphoning everything before, but of course it comes back just as strong the next day.

I have not tried DINO X, have you? I have read mixed reviews. Some of the negative ones include livestock losses and dinos coming back after a while. Makes sense, after all DINO X doesn't fix the problem that allowed them to happen and its unlikely it kills every dino in your tank. Might try it down the road if UV and ongoing natural methods don't work out.

 

[timeconsumer]

So I used Fauna Marin Ultra Algae X back when I fought them. They don't sell this anymore but it might be rebranded as FM Dino X now? Or it might be a completely different product. The one back then said in the instructions that it would kill tridacnid clams and I don't see the same warning on Dino X. Either way, when ostreopsis failed to be beaten by any other method I did find success with Ultra Algae X after 2 treatments. I had never tried UV or the dirty method though,

 

[Doberman13]

+1 on the UV. I had a pretty bad issue with ostreopsis. I tried a blackout but had to stop after 6 hours bc my anemone detached from the rock and was floating around the tank. I continued with manual removal but it was a losing battle. After installing the UV I have not had any issues with them. I still needed to do some manual removal for the first week or so.

 

[jmcdona6]

+1 on the UV. I had a pretty bad issue with ostreopsis. I tried a blackout but had to stop after 6 hours bc my anemone detached from the rock and was floating around the tank. I continued with manual removal but it was a losing battle. After installing the UV I have not had any issues with them. I still needed to do some manual removal for the first week or so.

Yeah that's one of my issues with dino management so far. I might even go as far to say that I have been "winning", but my anemone island is pretty pissed and its just a matter of time. I have about a dozen anemones on it and when I go into blackout even for a day they go crazy. In addition to being a liability if one got blown into the wrong place, my anemone rock is kinda my favorite "show piece" until my acro's grow in a little more. My largest one is about 9 inches across and is in a nice spot that it doesn't really bother anything...if it decided to start moving I would probably be screwed.

 

[lizzyann]

That sucks about the anemones being sensitive to a black out. I fought ostreopsis dinos for a while and what seemed pretty effective for me was a three day black out while running uv. I also added random bacteria mixes, added phyto and pods, and increased feedings. Make sure you add phyto and/or bacteria after you take the uv off because I think the uv will kill a lot of the beneficial stuff too. I think I also did a lot of manual removal, and filtering my water through extra fine socks and putting it back in instead of normal water changes. I think I also added random macro algae. My strategy was basically kill as much as possible with the uv and blackout, then add as much random micro/macrofauna as I could get my hands on to create a more balanced system. Weird about your nutrients not being super low though. Are you sure it's dinos still? Other stuff appeared to outcompete them for me. It looked similar but under a microscope I could see it was just diatoms, with only a little dinos still hanging on. Maybe some cyano popped up after the dinos too. Just getting back to a normal, balanced routine I think eventually solved all that. I didn't do any of the dinox or vibrant or anything. It took a while, and they would occasionally come back a little when my routine got a little out of whack, but I haven't seen them for a long while now .

 

[jmcdona6]

That sucks about the anemones being sensitive to a black out. I fought ostreopsis dinos for a while and what seemed pretty effective for me was a three day black out while running uv. I also added random bacteria mixes, added phyto and pods, and increased feedings. Make sure you add phyto and/or bacteria after you take the uv off because I think the uv will kill a lot of the beneficial stuff too. I think I also did a lot of manual removal, and filtering my water through extra fine socks and putting it back in instead of normal water changes. I think I also added random macro algae. My strategy was basically kill as much as possible with the uv and blackout, then add as much random micro/macrofauna as I could get my hands on to create a more balanced system. Weird about your nutrients not being super low though. Are you sure it's dinos still? Other stuff appeared to outcompete them for me. It looked similar but under a microscope I could see it was just diatoms, with only a little dinos still hanging on. Maybe some cyano popped up after the dinos too. Just getting back to a normal, balanced routine I think eventually solved all that. I didn't do any of the dinox or vibrant or anything. It took a while, and they would occasionally come back a little when my routine got a little out of whack, but I haven't seen them for a long while now .

Yep still sure. Did another microscope analysis last weekend because I was curious about a potential second variety on the sandbed (original samples came off the powerheads). Looked like the same Ostreopsis fortunately. I do see some cyano and diatom mixed in, but unscientifically I would say it is 99+% dino cells.

I have also heard that UV can be detrimental somewhat to beneficial microfauna. I have also read that it is marginal as most of the beneficial populations reside in your sand and rock. Something along the lines of unless you are running a massively oversized UV the natural reproduction should be able to keep up with whatever is killed off.

One thing I might reconsider going forward is the use of chemiclean. Every 2-3 months or so I tend to get a small outbreak of cyano especially near my anemones because they block flow in an already flow restricted area. Use chemiclean, gone overnight and good for another 2-3 months. It might be a coincidence but I think one of the preconditions that allowed my dino outbreak to onset was my last chemiclean treatment. It was a larger cyano bloom than normal but went away just as easily. Within a day or so I started noticing the signs of dino. I would trade my current situation for a small amount of cyano any day. Tank is still young at 9 months old so still a long way from being stable in that regard.

Another interesting observation, I have an in sump refugium that really doesn't have anything in it but biomedia, rubble, xenia and emerald crabs in prison. I used to keep some macro's in it but they never did that well. What does grow exceptionally well is GHA, which I have to harvest almost weekly despite not having a single instance of it in my display. I cleaned it out yesterday and noticed pretty much no signs of dinos. Even did a microscope test and only saw a handful of cells. Wierd huh. Maybe its the red light spectrum that they don't like?

 

[lizzyann]

Definitely some interesting observations! I think I remember other people that had similar experiences with chemiclean. I can't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure I ran the uv a couple times under normal conditions and it would kinda work, but then the dinos would come back. I think it finally worked during the blackout because the dinos didn't have any daily photoperiod to repopulate, just three days of darkness with the uv killing everything in the water column. I know it's definitely an ongoing struggle regardless. I'm guessing it wasn't any one thing that completely took care of them in my tank, more of a multi pronged battle. Hopefully they are on their way out at least!

 

[John Bowers]

Watching this thread, will go the nutrient supplement route. My dinos do not decrease over darkness and don't clearly match any of the types with the microscopy.

My phosphates are 0.14 ppm and nitrates are 0.25 ppm (near zero) will push nitrates up to 5ppm for a while to see what happens. I have a big refugium so no problems keeping nutrients low in general. I have dosed small amounts of nitrogen in the past and watched my phosphate fall to 0.08 so not too worried about it being high. Adding a bit of calcium-nitrate enough for 2PPM/day until I stabilize around 5 ppm. Will add phosphates if it falls below 0.04.

 

[jmcdona6]

Watching this thread, will go the nutrient supplement route. My dinos do not decrease over darkness and don't clearly match any of the types with the microscopy.

My phosphates are 0.14 ppm and nitrates are 0.25 ppm (near zero) will push nitrates up to 5ppm for a while to see what happens. I have a big refugium so no problems keeping nutrients low in general. I have dosed small amounts of nitrogen in the past and watched my phosphate fall to 0.08 so not too worried about it being high. Adding a bit of calcium-nitrate enough for 2PPM/day until I stabilize around 5 ppm. Will add phosphates if it falls below 0.04.

I am fortunate in that regard. I don't even need to do a full blackout, just turning off my LEDs for 12-18 hours makes my tank look better than it was before the dinos (algae/dino wise...obviously corals don't appreciate it). Of course, the benefits last just as long as the solution.

Update. Lights on this morning and there were no dinos on my sand or rocks except for a few small patches. A ton on my powerheads, frag rack, return nozzles and soft corals but those don't seem to go away as easily as the rest, granted they are also the thickest there. Now that I seem to be making a dent, I took the time to take all the aforementioned items out of the tank and clean them really well. Even took the soft corals out that were easily removed and gave them a rinse. Getting toward the end of the photo period now and the sand has discoloration and the higher rock layers have a thin dino film. Better than past days but still there. Plan to siphon what I can out here shortly.

I also shortened my photo period by 20% or so. I was doing a 4 hour peak and a 4 hour ramp on each side with minimum blue/uv in the late evening so I could still enjoy the tank late at night. Figure in addition to manual removal, if I can reduce their peak reproduction time that should go a long way towards helping.

I kind of think of it like this, nothing alone is good enough. They reproduce way too quickly and the fact they can live off nutrients and light is a killer. But if you can slowly start chipping away at the population (siphoning and cleaning), reduce their reproduction (less light and UV), and provide competition for resources/real estate (bacterial dosing)...I think it's at least my path forward right now and seems to be working so far.

 

[jmcdona6]

So I am calling it a moral victory. It's been two or so weeks now and I only ever see minor spots on the high rocks at the end of the photoperiod and some minor sand staining (75% diatom/25% dino by microscope). I am seeing a steady decline and hopefully, it will be a thing of the past soon with continued stability and treatment habits. Most of my corals have recovered and I might feel comfortable adding new corals soon. Got lucky, only lost one gorgonian and a good bit of my snail population.

As a recap, my course of action was.

(1) Bacteria dosing and blackout - beat it back but only temporarily.
(2) Installed UV. This got rid of most of the dino on the rocks and corals but didn't get rid of all and never really make a dent on the sand populations. I tried high, medium and low flow rates. Lower flow rates had the best results. Granted, I only bought a 25W UV which is considered underpowered for my 150G display. Maybe a higher watt UV would have been a knock out punch? I don't think so but I wasn't down for paying more regardless...
(3) Lowered my photoperiod. I went from a 12-hour w/5-hour max photoperiod to a 10-hour w/3-hour max. This practically eliminated dinos on the rocks and kept the sand populations manageable...but was never enough to eliminate them altogether.
(4) Dosing. I never stopped dosing bacteria but upgraded my efforts by diversifying with three different alternating brands. I also started dosing phyto and topped off my pods. Honestly not sure this did anything to help with the dinos.
(5) Finally, left with mostly dinos just in my sandbed I did two things. First, I started dosing silica to induce diatom blooms. Under the microscope, you can see the populations start to swing over time. Then I did something I NEVER wanted to do with my sandbed, aggressively clean it. I started vacuuming my sandbed every 2-3 days. This seems to reset the real estate battle with the diatoms becoming more prevalent each time.

Going forward, I will keep the UV on. Dosing of bacteria, I might stop. The cost for my size tank is not insignificant and I am not sure it does anything. I am going to keep up with the phyto. Even if it isn't helping with dinos, I can tell a visible difference in the health of my filter feeders. I am going to keep dosing silica and live with diatoms until I run out of silica solution. My lingering concern is what happens when I stop dosing? Will they take over the sandbed again? Guess we will find out when the time comes.

 

[John Bowers]

I have finally beat the dino plague myself.

1. Nitrate dosing and bacterial dosing (chemiclean and vibrant) not effective, or barely noticeable effect. FAIL

2. Blackout period 5 days, all back in 5 days after lights back. FAIL

3. Switched lights to 2 blue lumilght pros (on 40 gallon tank). Dino ALL GONE in a few days! Will keep it on all blue a bit longer, then return to much reduced white light, about 10-20% of previously. Rocks still look dirty, presumably with dead dino (it is grey), but are getting cleaner over time.

 

[jmcdona6]

I have finally beat the dino plague myself.

1. Nitrate dosing and bacterial dosing (chemiclean and vibrant) not effective, or barely noticeable effect. FAIL

2. Blackout period 5 days, all back in 5 days after lights back. FAIL

3. Switched lights to 2 blue lumilght pros (on 40 gallon tank). Dino ALL GONE in a few days! Will keep it on all blue a bit longer, then return to much reduced white light, about 10-20% of previously. Rocks still look dirty, presumably with dead dino (it is grey), but are getting cleaner over time.

You're last point about the blues goes along with my observations about my refugium. Even while the dinos were ravaging my tank, there wasn't a single visible dino in my refugium. Only difference I could tell? Running a refugium light with no whites.

Also my whites go off about 7pm then it's blues only until bedtime. Dinos are gone long before lights out and start declining rapidly after whites go.

 

[ZapataInc]

Watch this video from Inappropriate Reefer.

 

[jmcdona6]

I watched it last night, he is one of the people I watch almost every week on Sunday when he comes out with a new video.

I will say, I thought it was a bold video to make lol. He hasn't beat dinos yet. He still has dinos in his tank and hasn't removed all the steps he was doing to combat them. He might be good to go, but there is equal chance they will come back in a month. I probably would have waited a few more weeks before declaring victory on a well-watched youtube channel.