Nitrate problem
- Thread starter steagfs
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Tank is cycled and yes there is livestock...around 30lbs LR, 4' LS, small yellow tang & snowflake eel. 2 hob filter and an airstone skimmer, all rated for a 30g tank.
I may be wrong about this but if my nitrate is so bad, shouldn't my amm. and nitrite be bad also?
Also, I know about the tang....looking hard for a 75 or 90 tank.
Thanks in advance for the help.
Spencer
I may be wrong about this but if my nitrate is so bad, shouldn't my amm. and nitrite be bad also?
Also, I know about the tang....looking hard for a 75 or 90 tank.
Thanks in advance for the help.
Spencer
I had a similar prob. I had "future interest" come over and school me on my nitrate prob. My first prob was that my skimmer was to small for my setup. Next my light on my refugium was not powerful enough. Once i corrected those 2 probs. My nitrates are now below 15ppm.
I think I have to break down and get a real skimmer. I have been holding off because I've been waiting on the new tank but I can't let the fish suffer while I wait for the right deal. I'll be going to Montgomery tomorrow.
Anyone have a remora they want to sell?
Anyone have a remora they want to sell?
If I am wrong someone please correct me but my understanding is Amm converts to Nitrites and then Nitrites are converted to Nitrates and there is no where for them to go so they have to be removed by skimming and water changes. As a side note how much are you feeding the fish and hows your cleanup crew.
Water changes.... water changes... water changes...
Nitrate export is done, by macro algae, your live rock, DSB, (5"+), external nitrate reacters, or bac dosage systems.
Skimmers take out docs even before they get a chance to go through the nitrogen cycle, effectivly reducing the nitrate production in the system.... If you have tons of algae and still are detecting nitrates, then your net nitrate input must be extremely high. At this point since you are looking for a new tank, my best suggestion would be to do more water changes...
BTW, How much is through the roof exactly.....
Nitrate export is done, by macro algae, your live rock, DSB, (5"+), external nitrate reacters, or bac dosage systems.
Skimmers take out docs even before they get a chance to go through the nitrogen cycle, effectivly reducing the nitrate production in the system.... If you have tons of algae and still are detecting nitrates, then your net nitrate input must be extremely high. At this point since you are looking for a new tank, my best suggestion would be to do more water changes...
BTW, How much is through the roof exactly.....
Well, i'm not sure how advanced you are in chemistry, but you may want to look into things such as sugar/high-priced vodka/ Calcium Gluconate (SeaChem Reef Calcium).
This only solve the problem, you need to find the cause of the problem first-such as overfeeding and not enough liverock or skimming.
Water change is the only 100% way to fix this BTW.
This only solve the problem, you need to find the cause of the problem first-such as overfeeding and not enough liverock or skimming.
Water change is the only 100% way to fix this BTW.
they sell these things to reduce nitrate, basically does what your live rock does, you just have control over the rate and amount it reduces, I don't even know it these things work... I just threw in there to list the options, not as a recommendation.
You could try this....
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~additives_azno3.html">http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~additives_azno3.html</a>
but you need a good skimmer for this to work effectively, but you can try and see if it helps...
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~additives_azno3.html">http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~additives_azno3.html</a>
but you need a good skimmer for this to work effectively, but you can try and see if it helps...
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The nitrogen cycle happens because of the bacteria in your system.
1) You feed the fish.
2) Fish digest food and poop. Among other things, poop contains ammonia (NH3).
3) In an aerated environment (like the water in your tank and the surface of your live rock), one set of bacteria in your tank convert the ammonia to nitrite (NO2).
4) In an aerated environment, another set of bacteria convert the nitrite to nitrate (NO3). If you only have an aerated environment this is where the cycle stops.
5) In an unaerated (anoxic) environment a third set of bacteria can convert nitrate to nitrogen gas, which easily comes out the water to the air you breath. In a tank the center of your LR and the bottom of the deep sand bed are unaerated, or at least the nitrate diffuses into these areas quicker than the oxygen to the same effect. Basically the bacteria in the anoxic areas are using the oxygens in the nitrate (there are three in NO3) to breath since elemental oxygen is not present.
Other mechanisms for nitrogen removal are algae growth (plants are roughly 100:10:1 parts Carbon:Nitrogen
hosphorus). So when your macro grows, it must use all nitrogen and take it out of the water. Then to get the nitrogen out of your system you must harvest the macro out of the tank to the trashcan. If your fish eat the macro you are back on step one of the cycle.
The additives that ouling is describing are carbon sources for your bacteria. If there is a lot of carbon, then the bacteria require more oxygen. In the anoxic zones the oxygen comes from nitrate, so more nitrate is used. The only problem would be if you don't really have any good anoxic zones. You want nice thick, POROUS, live rock (it should feel really light compared to its size) and a deep sand bed (harder for the oxygen in the water to diffuse).
One way to reduce the nitrates would be to reduce your aeration making more anoxic conditions in the tank. Unfortunately, your fish like to breath oxygen, so this is not a good idea. An external nitrate reactor is basically a breeding ground for bacteria with a low oxygen concentration (anoxic) that promotes nitrate reduction to nitrogen gas. Pump some water through a closed loop, through the reactor, and the water comes back with less nitrate.
1) You feed the fish.
2) Fish digest food and poop. Among other things, poop contains ammonia (NH3).
3) In an aerated environment (like the water in your tank and the surface of your live rock), one set of bacteria in your tank convert the ammonia to nitrite (NO2).
4) In an aerated environment, another set of bacteria convert the nitrite to nitrate (NO3). If you only have an aerated environment this is where the cycle stops.
5) In an unaerated (anoxic) environment a third set of bacteria can convert nitrate to nitrogen gas, which easily comes out the water to the air you breath. In a tank the center of your LR and the bottom of the deep sand bed are unaerated, or at least the nitrate diffuses into these areas quicker than the oxygen to the same effect. Basically the bacteria in the anoxic areas are using the oxygens in the nitrate (there are three in NO3) to breath since elemental oxygen is not present.
Other mechanisms for nitrogen removal are algae growth (plants are roughly 100:10:1 parts Carbon:Nitrogen
hosphorus). So when your macro grows, it must use all nitrogen and take it out of the water. Then to get the nitrogen out of your system you must harvest the macro out of the tank to the trashcan. If your fish eat the macro you are back on step one of the cycle.The additives that ouling is describing are carbon sources for your bacteria. If there is a lot of carbon, then the bacteria require more oxygen. In the anoxic zones the oxygen comes from nitrate, so more nitrate is used. The only problem would be if you don't really have any good anoxic zones. You want nice thick, POROUS, live rock (it should feel really light compared to its size) and a deep sand bed (harder for the oxygen in the water to diffuse).
One way to reduce the nitrates would be to reduce your aeration making more anoxic conditions in the tank. Unfortunately, your fish like to breath oxygen, so this is not a good idea. An external nitrate reactor is basically a breeding ground for bacteria with a low oxygen concentration (anoxic) that promotes nitrate reduction to nitrogen gas. Pump some water through a closed loop, through the reactor, and the water comes back with less nitrate.
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All of the above being said, there are a couple of reasons why your nitrates may be high:
1) You don't have enough or the right kind of LR.
2) You don't have a deep sand bed.
3) You don't have a fully formed bacteria population yet; i.e. your sand bed may be deep enough but you haven't cycled (the cycle is basically the time it takes to establish a healthy bacteria population in the tank) the tank long enough to increase your bacteria population to meet the fish poop demand. Or you don't have the right type of bacteria in your tank (each step uses a specialized class of bacteria).
Questions:
1) How deep is your sand bed?
2) In the 30lbs of LR, do you have any large pieces or are they all small?
3) How long did you cycle?
Possible solutions:
1) Water changes
2) Add Stability by Kent. It is basically nitrogen cycle bacteria in a bottle to jump start your cycle properly.
3) Add more live rock.
4) Add more sand.
5) Fuge
6) External nitrogen reactor (not my favorite idea, not usually needed)
Solutions 1 and 2 are best for short term, 3 to 5 long term, and if you need 6 then you are probably just overfeeding.
1) You don't have enough or the right kind of LR.
2) You don't have a deep sand bed.
3) You don't have a fully formed bacteria population yet; i.e. your sand bed may be deep enough but you haven't cycled (the cycle is basically the time it takes to establish a healthy bacteria population in the tank) the tank long enough to increase your bacteria population to meet the fish poop demand. Or you don't have the right type of bacteria in your tank (each step uses a specialized class of bacteria).
Questions:
1) How deep is your sand bed?
2) In the 30lbs of LR, do you have any large pieces or are they all small?
3) How long did you cycle?
Possible solutions:
1) Water changes
2) Add Stability by Kent. It is basically nitrogen cycle bacteria in a bottle to jump start your cycle properly.
3) Add more live rock.
4) Add more sand.
5) Fuge
6) External nitrogen reactor (not my favorite idea, not usually needed)
Solutions 1 and 2 are best for short term, 3 to 5 long term, and if you need 6 then you are probably just overfeeding.
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I don't have much to add... However, I am curious though what your actual numbers are for nitrates.
I don't know what skimmer you're using, but if a remora is an upgrade for you then that's prolly your problem right there. That begs the question of course... what skimmer are you currently using?
Back to the remora, I've never used a remora but some people swear by them, so maybe that'll be sufficient for your setup. The typical mantra on skimmers that everyone spouts is "buy the best one you can afford." For me, it was more of cramming the largest one in my sump... Everyone has different limitations on what skimmer they can get. Some people pay insane money on skimmers...
That begs another question... It's a tube that they blow bubbles through, so why do they cost so much? Answer: Because that's how much we're willing to pay for them.
Anyways, upgrade the skimmer and if you don't have a fuge put one in. It's the cheapest solution possible for nutrient export. Also, skimmers do NOT directly remove nitrates. Skimmers can only remove organic compounds, they can't do anything to the inorganic stuff like the nitrates in your water column. A fuge however thrives off the inorganic stuff.
G'luck
I don't know what skimmer you're using, but if a remora is an upgrade for you then that's prolly your problem right there. That begs the question of course... what skimmer are you currently using?
Back to the remora, I've never used a remora but some people swear by them, so maybe that'll be sufficient for your setup. The typical mantra on skimmers that everyone spouts is "buy the best one you can afford." For me, it was more of cramming the largest one in my sump... Everyone has different limitations on what skimmer they can get. Some people pay insane money on skimmers...
That begs another question... It's a tube that they blow bubbles through, so why do they cost so much? Answer: Because that's how much we're willing to pay for them.
Anyways, upgrade the skimmer and if you don't have a fuge put one in. It's the cheapest solution possible for nutrient export. Also, skimmers do NOT directly remove nitrates. Skimmers can only remove organic compounds, they can't do anything to the inorganic stuff like the nitrates in your water column. A fuge however thrives off the inorganic stuff.
G'luck
First off and no offense, HOB filters are not good for salt tanks, especailly nanos. Are you using the HOB with a bio wheel? If you are, those are probably your issue. Make sure nothing in your HOB is a nitrate harvester, i.e bio wheel or bio-balls; replace them with new ones and invest in a new filter when you can, i.e a sump or HOB fuge with chaeto and lr in it. Also, make sure your not over feeding. I have a 24g and feed once every other day and I make sure the fish eat everything i put in. Nothing goes uneaten and the fish stay healthy.
oh and don't do a bunch of water changes in a week, one 20-25% change should suffice. Too much will hurt your tank. i also agree about the the skimmer, its not gonna help you in this situation. I suggest skimmers by sapphire aquatics over remora for your size tank if you do buy one down the road though.
