Nitrites

linda lee · Apr 28, 2009

What would cause high nitrates in a quarantine tank or hospital tank which is receiving adequate water changes? Tanks are 29g and 40g with below-moderate bioloads.

Is it possible to change the water too often in a QT or or hospital tank? Less than 24 hours after a water change, the nitrites test off the chart. Why?

A hospital tank receiving medication cannot have carbon filtration, liverock, livesand or a skimmer. How do you maintain the biological filter on QT and hospital tanks that are receiving frequent water changes?

And (far reach here), is it at all possible for a brackish water fish to release some kind of toxin in saltwater, killing its saltwater tankmates?

Looks like we'll be starting over with 0 fish and never ever want to go through this again.

smoothie · Apr 28, 2009

Brackish wasn't a puffer was it? Those guys are mean as hell sometimes.
To much of a water change to often could cause it. What are you using for filtration and flow? Maxi's with the sponge filter and powersweaps with the sponge work good in QT's to trap the right amount of bio goodies in them and give you gentle flow

crew · Apr 28, 2009

ya, those puffers don't play nice

jennm · Apr 28, 2009

ares;335713 wrote: get a cheap emporer fresh water filter with a biowheel. if you can afford it, keep a spare biowheel in your display sump, then shift it over to the emporer when you use the QT.

if you medicate the QT though, you'll want to buy a new biowheel to put into the sump for the future.

:::: APPLAUSE :::::

This is *EXACTLY* what I recommend. Keep the biowheel ready to go in the sump - if you use meds or have disease in the QT, throw the biowheel away after you're done with the QT if you take the tank down "in between" (otherwise leave it there and throw a pinch of fish food in there from time to time to keep the biological going) - and buy another bio-wheel to cycle in the sump for next time. Cost of a new biowheel is about $10. A LOT cheaper than losing fish in QT.

As for nitrites spiking in QT - if there isn't enough surface area in the filter to house enough beneficial bacteria, it can't keep up with the bioload. No, you can't use chemical filtration (ie carbon) - but you must use some sort of biological - even a "sacrificial" piece of small LR (that will never return to the main display) can help - but it's probably not enough on its own. Biowheels have a lot of surface area for those beneficial bacteria to take care of ammonia and nitrite and water changes keep the nitrate diluted.

Jenn

linda lee · Apr 28, 2009

JennM;335802 wrote: As for nitrites spiking in QT - if there isn't enough surface area in the filter to house enough beneficial bacteria, it can't keep up with the bioload. No, you can't use chemical filtration (ie carbon) - but you must use some sort of biological - even a "sacrificial" piece of small LR (that will never return to the main display) can help - but it's probably not enough on its own. Biowheels have a lot of surface area for those beneficial bacteria to take care of ammonia and nitrite and water changes keep the nitrate diluted.

Well, that pretty much solves the mystery. We actually have one of the larger Emperor HOB's that operates with two biowheels. The biowheels are long gone, but we'll definitely pick some up to keep in the sump.

weaglereefer · Apr 28, 2009

Linda, I have 3 spare biowheels. Got them for $.50 each on clearance at Petco (didn't need them at the time, but knew the cost and IF I ever needed one, I would have it). I can bring them up next time I'm in town, don't have the biowheel filter any more.

cr500_af · Apr 28, 2009

Linda,
Sorry you've had this happen. Once you are back up and running, you are welcome to reclaim your Bangaii at any time. I know you were wanting a pair, but if you change your mind this is still YOUR fish.

ralph atl · Apr 28, 2009

pledge can cause that!

LOL!

sailfish · Apr 28, 2009

I have canister filter bio media( buy at petco) in a mesh bag I keep in the sump that I add to the box of a power filter when I set up QT. You could use live rock rubble in the same way. Sorry to hear Linda.

Joe

ralph atl · Apr 28, 2009

awe man Linda, I misread your post from my phone (tiny), i didn't mean to throw a joke up here when you lost your fish! sorry! I thought you were asking about nitrites & water...................ah, it don't matter. it was obvious I was referencing that "fun" thread with nemo yesterday. again, my apologies! and sorry for your loss! sucks!

linda lee · Apr 28, 2009

Okay, ONE last question and I'll let this thing go.

I didn't make it clear that the tank I really wanted answers about was the hospital tank. If a tank is being treated daily with a medication (such as Paraguard), do you omit the sponge, biowheel, liverock (or whatever else you take from the sump) and just do daily water changes? It's my understanding that NO filtration is permitted, be it chemical, biological or whatever. Is this wrong?

I guess I just want to know once and for all if I killed these fish so this never happens again.

We got a lot of advice, followed it very closely and lost almost everything. I feel like we must have done something wrong.

Wish now I'd just left everything in the 180g and let them take their chances. That's probably what we'll do next time.

cr500_af · Apr 28, 2009

Anxious to hear answers to this myself... I was under the impression that skimming a HT was OK as long as that skimmer became permanently banished from the DT.

Plus, the way I read this thread, the biowheel in the HT isn't going to be used for filtration, but just to harbor beneficial bacteria. Why couldn't it just sit in the tank to do its job?

(Puts on learning cap and waits)

crew · Apr 28, 2009

Im no expert.. but from what I have know from my major, filtration isn't going to effect medication unless its carbon (makes sense chemistry wise)

so I would say def. use normal filtration.. just don't put that biowheel or whatever else back in the display after

linda lee · Apr 28, 2009

So with the absence of beneficial bacteria, the fish die. No ifs, ands or buts.

ralph atl · Apr 28, 2009

correct

linda lee · Apr 28, 2009

that's just great

never again

I think it's time to take up another hobby

dakota9 · Apr 28, 2009

Carty;336033 wrote: Im no expert.. but from what I have know from my major, filtration isn't going to effect medication unless its carbon (makes sense chemistry wise)

so I would say def. use normal filtration.. just don't put that biowheel or whatever else back in the display after

Those are my thoughts. Sorry you guys are having to go though all of this!

cr500_af · Apr 28, 2009

Theoretical question:

A bare hospital tank with no filtration MUST have frequent water changes to keep fish alive, right? This water should have bacteria present if it can't be present in sponge/filter/rock etc. In Linda's case, the fish were being treated with meds while the tank remained fallow.

If a) the fallow tank was being "fed" to keep the bacteria alive, and b) the water for water changes came from the fallow DT... would the regular med treatment be enough to protect the QT inhabitants from the parasite or illness that caused all of these events? Or would using DT water to keep the QT up with frequent changes risk a reinfection EVEN WITH the meds being dosed in the QT?

fish scales2 · Apr 28, 2009

I pulled this off of wetwebmedia.com Hope it helps some. 
Linda, we are sorry to hear about your loss and wish you luck.

A Quarantine System:
Is a smaller version (10-50 gallons) of a total marine set-up. It generally will have the following components:
1) A chemically inert tank of glass, fiberglass/wood, acrylic, +with a complete cover; possibly but not necessarily with a light fixture. Darkening the sides is a good idea.
2) Synthetic or "real" seawater. Some folks utilize their "spare" system to house, mix/age new water. I suggest you go the other direction and siphon "water changes" into the quarantine tank, and use a trash-can arrangement for preparing and storing new water. You want water quality to approximate your main system; what better way than to start with the water from there? 
3) Some source of biological filtration. A sponge, cartridge-type outside power, or canister filter is better than undergravel, wet-dry or... You want to control the water chemistry in this system with a minimum of co-interaction with decor, gravel, mass populations of micro-organisms.
4) Test kits for at least pH, ammonia, nitrite and any therapeutic agent you might be employing (e.g. copper).
5) Chemically un-reactive cover.. PVC pipe et al. that will grant your livestock some sense of physical control, but won't absorb or otherwise change water chemistry.
6) Temperature control and monitoring. A heater and thermometer.
7) Treatment chemicals, nets, miscellaneous. 
8) Oh yes; also a writing utensil and recording medium. Pen and paper to keep track of what you're doing and have observed.
Procedure: A Standard Operating One
First, let's state our objective: "To treat incoming livestock in such ways as to severely reduce the likelihood of disease introduction, or a weakened specimen." Okay, sound's good to me.
1) Having studied up and purchased (a) healthy individuals, possibly a dip/bath in freshwater with or without chemical additives is executed and the new stock placed in the ready quarantine system. Any chemical "medicines" (typically copper-based) have been added and their concentration checked (and recorded) twice.
2) The livestock is carefully observed daily along with testing and adjusting for treatment concentration (if any). Unusual appearances and behavior are recorded. Feeding is light, with any non-eaten excess promptly vacuumed out. 
A note here regarding sharing the same isolation system for both fishes and non-fishes (invertebrates, rock, algae). Of course you'll have to dump and clean the tank out for non-fish if you've treated the water with chemicals for fishes. Want an added hint? Utilize a chemical filtrant with non-fish additionally when quarantining.
3) A proper interval (generally a minimum of two of weeks) goes by in which the specimen shows no ill effects of transport or disease.
4) It is in turn placed through proper acclimation technique, and possibly another dip/bath as in 1) above enroute to the main system. 
Advantages To Be Gained:
A) The principal scourges of marine reef fishes are virtually eliminated. Protozoans like salt water ich (Cryptocaryon), Amyloodinium (an algae to some), Glugea, Brooklynella..., bacteria, and many if not most all crustacean, worm problems are solved by this screening procedure. 
B) Transit "disease" is alleviated. The jet lag some livestock goes through is greater than that some of it's owners have ever endured themselves. Given a brief respite to rest and reconstitute, new specimens are far more likely to rapidly adjust and not be bullied by existing tankmates in the main system. Very often, the animals, algae and rock at your dealers was "on the reef" just days before. Give them a rest break.
C) Non-disruption of your principal system. Think of all the time and money you have or will have into the display unit. How would you like to tear it down, completely, possibly toss the gravel, scrub and sterilize everything because of "trouble" that could have been simply avoided by quarantine? I'm talking about getting rid of infectious and parasitic diseases, treating with remedies in the main system for secondary infections after them, eliminating the reproductive products of those diseases, and dead organisms polluting your tank. 
D) All the other things you can do with an extra tank. Think of the peace of mind of knowing that you have somewhere to put your livestock should the other system "go down". 
Summary:
To the uninitiated, the issue of quarantine must seem like this writer's "pipe-dream". I can feel some of you through space and time thinking, "this guy's nuts; people aren't going to do this". Dear Reader, indeed, I may be bonkers, but all advanced aquarists, public aquaria and breeders of marine livestock, small and large employ quarantine to limit their losses. You should as well.
Don't wait to learn the hard way. All marine fishes and much non-fish livestock must be quarantined, regardless of how and where they are acquired.

Nitrites

linda lee

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smoothie

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crew

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jennm

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linda lee

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weaglereefer

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cr500_af

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sailfish

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linda lee

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