Perpetual newbie here in need of a mentor

[thewarbrd]

I'm at my wits end after endless battles with 'the unknown demon' and it's time to admit I need a mentor because everything I'm reading both here and elsewhere like wetweb isn't helping. I'm getting to the point that I'm almost ready to just call it quits on corals and go FOWLR because all I'm doing is killing things and throwing money down the drain and making me hate my tank vs enjoy it.

So here's my tanks life story for anyone that would like to offer a new direction for me.

I've had my 75RR+30sump going on a year now. I run 2 maxijet 1200s with sureflow mods and an oceanrunner 3500 for a return. Chaeto in the sump as well as a skimmer. 10% water change weekly, the water mixes 1-2 days in a separate 10g tank with power head and airstone. Topoff and change water is RO/DI that is tested at 000 with a hannah meter.

150lbs live rock, 100lbs of sand (fairly deep bed as baserock is on the bottom glass, I'd venture 4-5 inches across the front of the tank and 2-4 behind the rock. CUC is a fleet of nassarius snails, cerith snails (population seems to be dying off too), and 8 or so astrea snails on hair algae patrol.

I started off with instant ocean salt and was having reasonably good success and growth but low parms. I posted growth pics in my build thread back in March (updated attached below). I switched to seachem reef salt around then and now and 3 months later even though my parms are testing better than they ever did, everything, and I mean everything is going backwards. All my zoos are shrinking and never fully open and extend, my shrooms are literally smaller than the average zoo, my yellow polyps have stumps for fingers instead of the long flowing ones they had a few months ago. Large beautiful colonies I've bought have either wasted completly away or are headed that direction as they almost never fully open anymore for no visible reason.

I've dipped a few zoo colonies and frags in lugols (ro/di temp and ph matched and 40drops per gallon per the instructions on the kent bottle) and nothing came off but a few pods. I've hunted day and night, in and out of the tank for things like nudis, pox, spiders, and no sign of anything. Something is either seriously lacking, or something is irritating everything. I've read where some kinds of corals will release chemicals that irritate others, I'm guessing that's where I'm at and I'm working to set up a frag tank to start pulling things out to see if they'll recover out of the main system.

I even dosed vitamin C for a few weeks, while it seemed to help stop the shrinkage, using buffered C was pushing my alk through the roof so I backed off.

Livestock list:
1 yellow watchman and pistol shrimp
1 Mated pair of true percs (no nem or host)
1 Firefish goby
1 Red scooter blenny

Corals
- Several varieties of zoos and palys but only 1 real colony remains out of the two I've bought. The rest were bought as frags, started growing, then have all but become blank plugs over the last couple of months.
- 4-5 Rics
- 2" or so Pagoda cup frag
- 4-5 heads of frogspawn
- Green Birdsnest - I was told to place this near the top beings I have T5's so I did. It grew like a bandit but turned stark white (still alive, just no colors) so it was recommended I move it to the bottom of the tank, where it's now regaining it's brown base color.
- Kenya tree
- Pulsing xenia
- Tiny purple shrooms, 2 smaller blue hairy shrooms, and a now microscopic superman shroom.

The ever-important Parms
PH - 8.15, has been 8.1-8.2 since day 1 of the tank (seachem kit)
Alk - 3.71 meq, 10.4kh (salifert kit)
Amonia/trite/trate - doesnt register (seachem kit)
Calc - 420 (elos kit)
Mag - 1275 (salifert kit)
Phosphate - 0 to .1 (elos kit)
Iodine - 0-.6 depending on how often I keep on top of dosing (seachem kit)
Salinity - 1.025 (refractometer calibrated with pinpoint solution)
Temp 78-80 (old school suction cup red liquid thermometer)

The only thing I've ever dosed is aquvitro: Mag, Calc, Fuel, and Iodine. I've started trying target feeding with reef chili every 2-3 days alternating with the fuel on the non reef-chili days.

I've been running ATI T5's (4x54) with icecap reflectors and each pair are wired to icecap 660s in 2-bulb mode. I've verified with icecap that in this config the bulbs still arent being overdriven to any more than 75-80 watts. I run two so I can do sunrise/sunset periods with actinic only (and went with 660s with the intent to someday have a bigger tank that would need 8 T5s). I replaced my glass tops with DIY mesh tops and the bulbs are 3-4" off the water. I run a large fan through the eggcrate canopy top to keep everything cool and the tank runs at a pretty solid 78-80 via evap cooling (1-2g a day). My cycle is:

Actinics on 3:00pm
Daylights on at 4:00pm
Daylights off at 10:00pm
Actinics off at 11:00pm

I was running 1pm-11pm but with everything bleaching I was thinking I was pushing too much light. I'm renting a PAR meter this weekend to get readings and to compare my ATI's with icecaps new bulbs made by UVL. Short of corals fighting it out with toxins, I'm open for any other things to look for to turn my baby around.

Birdsnest bleaching progress... It was a lot whiter than what it is in todays pic before I moved it almost down to the sandbed a couple of weeks ago.

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Yellow polyps are now yellow stumps

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And this is the one that breaks my heart the most as they were taking of so well, now on a good day they'll open up to about 1/3 the size they were in the March pick but no longer have hardly any finger extension to speak of

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Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

 

[ralph atl]

ok, stop dosing everything, except calc & alk.

how are you dosing Calcium & Alk?
do you have algae?
does your water ever get cloudy?
do you have a film on top? look up at the surface?

 

[ralph atl]

can you bring me a water sample?

 

[lilrobb]

Are you running a skimmer?

 

[dakota9]

Nothing you've posted throws up any red flags regarding chemical warfare within your livestock. Your colonies are just far too small with a comparatively large amount of water volume.

Any foreign contaminate in the water? Test for copper? Copper can enter your tank via liverock procurred from a trade/ trade-in. My son threw pennies in my sump once, but fortunately I saw it when it happened and fished them out.

Looks like they are veing minorly irritated by something, but not irritated enough to kill them.

Nothing other than stated off the top of my head, but I'll think on it.

You'll find a mentor, good candidates abound.

 

[smoothie]

Let a member test it as offered and take a sample by your local store.

 

[jeep9783]

how long have you had that current bulb setup and what is the bulb config...also you replaced any bulbs recently...I had the same problem with my setup up 4X48 t5ho's overdriven on icecap 660...i underestimated the power of t5's wammo every sps i had bleached and all my zoos looked like they had burnt feelers (not bleached just cringed up and not opening all the way) now i only have one daylight and it aint really even a daylight ati aqua blue special (12k) the rest actinic (i also have a 75rr) and presto every day i am coming home my coral are coloring up a weee bit more than the day before...almost all my sps is in the sandbed now and after speaking to mike (mufret) i will gradually increse the coral heights eventually to the top witin a couple months...18inch tank you can't overdrive more than one daylight or bleacking accures...I beleave dericks only has one daylight and he has 8bulbs over a 24-30inch tank...

 

[ralph atl]

Hey Russell!

please be so kind as answer some questions here? Thanks!

there are a lot of things that you can rule out, but we are trying to narrow it down even more.

 

[skriz]

It looks like a lighting issue. You stated that you replaced the glass top with eggcrate. When was that? Removing the glass would allow more light through.

Also, have you checked for electrical current in the tank? Some would actually help the coral grow, but too much will kill everything.

Have you tried performing some massive water changes and stop dosing while doing this?

 

[oldschool52]

As far as your chem warfare;
Separate conflicting corals
Use some activated charcoal in a filter bag in your sump (about 2 cups)
I use and have always used API. Rinse well in tap water to remove dust then pour about a gallon of RO water thru it then soak in RO water for 30 min or longer.
Put filter bag w/charcoal in sump where water will flow thru. After 5 to 7 days toss charcoal it is usually full and won't help anymore. If you leave it in it just won't do anything but will not hurt anything.

THIS WORKS FOR ME FOR POLISHUNG WATER

 

[jeep9783]

also you know in most of these pics u can tell it is high light due to the fact i only see coraline algae on one of the frag plugs...much like mine...only place i was getting coraline was behind all my rock bf i switched to only one daylight bulb

and the pic i did notice it on i would imagine was when you first got it so that is out of the question...b/c the coraline is gone now

 

[thewarbrd]

OK, let me see if I can catch all the questions!

mysterybox;364966 wrote: ok, stop dosing everything, except calc & alk.

how are you dosing Calcium & Alk?
do you have algae?
does your water ever get cloudy?
do you have a film on top? look up at the surface?

Calc is dosed via aquavitro, not dosing alk, it's typically pretty stable week to week in the ranges quoted with water changes

Algae: I have some spots of HA which comes and goes, it'll flare up then die off, assuming as it consumes the po4. Currently it's starting to flare up. I've never really had coraline until within the last month or so and it literally bloomed out of no where, and oddly enough it really started up in my sump where the water feeds in along the glass in the fuge side. It then bloomed up in the display on the back and one side I dont clean (frag rack mounted there).

I've had cloudy water on occasion, but not near as bad as a bacterial bloom that I had last winter where the water was very white, I guess I would say it's always slightly cloudy when looking end to end but from the front it's always clear except for the random puff of sand kicked up by the blenny and goby.

Never had a film, the overflow seems to keep things clean, maybe in the corners where water will swirl a bit, but never the entire surface.

LilRobb;364969 wrote: Are you running a skimmer?

Yep, Kent Nautilus TE fed by a mag 7. It pulls out about an inch of skimate a day dark, and wet.

jeep9783;364989 wrote: how long have you had that current bulb setup and what is the bulb config...also you replaced any bulbs recently...

Changed from PC's to T5's last week of December, replaced the bulbs that I bought with the kit with the current bulbs 1st week of February, so right at 4 months on this set. 2 actinic, 1 aquablue special and a procolor. I'm planning to switch to the 'deepwater' mix from Icecap, 2 actinic, 1 'twilight' and one 14k. I actually switched the aquablue and procolor out for the twilight and 14k 2 nights ago, but again, my issues have been going on for about 2 months now so this shouldnt be a cause, but hopefully part of the fix as these new ones arent as white/bright to the eye.

Skriz;364995 wrote: It looks like a lighting issue. You stated that you replaced the glass top with eggcrate. When was that? Removing the glass would allow more light through.

Also, have you checked for electrical current in the tank? Some would actually help the coral grow, but too much will kill everything.

Have you tried performing some massive water changes and stop dosing while doing this?

Tops change was only two weeks ago, I was well into this decline by then and it was suggested I get the glass tops off, it helped temps a good bit, I was running 82-84 with the tops on.

Have not checked for current... Do you ground one to an outlet and probe positive in the water or both positive and negative in the water?

A month or so ago I did 10% changes every other day for 10 days thinking maybe I had some contaminant in the water killing everything, I was considering doing it again because it seemed to help stop the slide but it didnt turn things around.

oldschool52;364997 wrote: As far as your chem warfare;
Separate conflicting corals
Use some activated charcoal in a filter bag in your sump (about 2 cups)

Nothing is close to touching, I have such a sparse collection everything has a lot of wiggle room. I've run carbon in a phosban reactor, typically about a cup with a couple of tablespoons of rowaphos, but I havent run that in a while thinking it was making its way into the system and irritating things even rinsed and running output over a filter sponge. I'll resume carbon.

As far as water testing, I'll be paying Tim a visit tomorrow to pick up a PAR meter and now some carbon. If anyone is along the way and would be available for a quick stop between 11 and 2 let me know, I'll bring a jug with me.

Last post for the night, thanks all for the quick and helpful feedback, more tomorrow!

 

[ralph atl]

I suggest you get a good 2-part for now and dose calcium, ALk, and your mag is ok, can go a little higher. Don't dose anything else. I would do a few 20% water changes over the next couple of weeks.

 

[ralph atl]

great salt btw.

 

[thewarbrd]

I've scratched my head quite often on the iodine. It will read zero almost every time I test it, WC or not. I don't suspect the kit or problems following the procedure because I've run the reference solution many times to confirm I mixed up the reagent properly (seachem kit) and my water reads well below the sample.

Nothing but WC's from here on out and they will be 15-20% twice a week for the next 3-4 weeks.

I should have some PAR readings tonight to know what I've got going on as far as light. It's just frustrating when you read "throw as much light at it as you can" and when you do everything turns white and 'squints' all the time so you back it off and make it worse

I'll be heading for ATL coming from Athens with a water sample and my kits in tow later this morning. My current window based on the wife and kids schedule is between 12 and 4 so if anyone is still offering parm verifications in realistically the 1-3pm window, let me know. I'll be returning the meter either tomorrow or sunday so there will be another chance then to meet up for a test.

Thanks again for all the positive help. It's reassuring that I've got a good shot at turning the thing around.

 

[jennm]

You're getting some good advice here. I think OldSchool may be on to something with carbon (or Renew)... corals don't have to encroach in order to do 'chemical warfare'. That's something that's easy/inexpensive to try and is not adding more "stuff" to the water - but will remove organics/toxins.

I also agree that backing off on the dosing until you figure the problem out. Do monitor the trace element parameters to see what, if anything, changes with stopping dosing.

Yes to testing for voltage, but in my experience, the fish show stress before corals do - but at least check it out to rule it out. Ground the black wire in an outlet, red wire in the water. Meters vary, I set mine to 200 volts. You're bound to get a volt or two, but anything higher than about 5 requires further investigation.

Parameters appear fine - no harm in comparing results with somebody else doing the testing, particularly iodine - as was mentioned, more is not better.

If you're in need of new lamps, check my post in my sponsor forum - I may be able to help you out there (yeah, shameless plug, sorry!)

I think the photoperiod is OK but I'd definitely check the temperature with another device - because that could cause problems too.

One other thing - make changes one by one, and gradually. If you change many things at once (nothing *good* happens fast in a reef tank!), and you see a change in your creatures - it makes the process difficult to figure out just what worked (for better or for worse). Make notes... because down the road of trial and error you may want to look back and see what you changed and when that did X or Y.

Jenn

 

[lilrobb]

My skimmer question was actually not aiming at waterquality but aeration.
I noticed that my skimmer really ups the amount of dissolved oxygen in my water.


Robb

 

[thewarbrd]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Jenn, I actually bought my setup from you last fall, it was one you'd posted on CL I'm good on bulbs, I just ordered a enough of the new icecaps for two rounds of replacements via the 'introductory price' they had going at $15 per bulb.

Robb, I've actually wondered about ORP but I've just not been able to pull the trigger on a controller or anything that will monitor it. But it seems like everything else I've read, some people say it's important to know and others say it doesn't matter. I also have a 'go big or go home' mentality sometimes, so if I go with a controller it'll be an RKE or something that has all the monitors and controls I'd ever need for a bigger tank.

Right now my plan is no more dosing of any chems. No reef-chili or fuel, the only thing that'll go into the tank is food for the fish (who are all happy as can be BTW). Aggressive water changes and running a couple cups of carbon via a reactor changing it out weekly for a month. Soon as I can dig up my voltage meter I'll test for voltage. I will hold off on upping the photoperiod until I can get PAR readings and adjust based on what things are read and how y'all interpret the readings.

 

[tokejr]

It looks like chemical warfare to me as well.

Activated charcoal will help tremendously. We just put it in a sock and stick it between the baffles in the sump. Change it once a month, or more frequently if I'm adding new corals. You want as much water running through the charcoal as you can get before it goes back to the display.

 

[thewarbrd]

Dug up the volt meter, the highest reading I saw was about 1.5 volts wth everything on as it normally runs. I have all my equipment plugged into individually switched outlets and one of my maxijets is responsible for a full volt, toggling everything else on and off only had it swinging .5-.1v. When I plugged in and turned on my unused heater it swung up to about 2.5v.

Off to take PAR readings and do a water change.