Plumbing a water source and drain..

[giulianom]

Before I get my new 150g tank ordered and installed, I was thinking of running a water source pipe and a drain pipe up through the wall, so I could easily feed a RO/DI and drain for water changes, etc...

The nearest water source is from the nearby pipes that feed the downstairs bathroom, and the main drain is also there.

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I could probably insert another tube just above the upper Y on the main drain...


... do I need permits to make plumbing changes?

Thoughts?

 

[jbadd99]

Probably, but that didn't stop me from cutting through my foundation with a concrete saw to move some drains in my slab.

If you can think it, and visualize it, and you haven't been drinking - DO IT!

 

[budsreef]

Some of the RO/DI units come with tap kits with valves that let you tap a water supply and drain with minimal effort. With some it might be an option.

 

[grayskwerel]

No permit is needed for plumbing changes. While your at it... you could put some insulation between those studs... put up 2 new walls and make a fish room... have your sump and all your aquarium stuff in there. Don't forget to add a register for heating and cooling so you can regulate the temp in the room.

 

[rbredding]

I'd run the drain UNDER the wye shown at the top.. (or wye into the lateral line of the current wye)..

With plumbing it's ALL about slope.. make sure you keep between 1/8" and 1/4" of fall every 12" (NO MORE THAN 5/16")

 

[giulianom]

Rbredding;651116 wrote: I'd run the drain UNDER the wye shown at the top.. (or wye into the lateral line of the current wye)..

With plumbing it's ALL about slope.. make sure you keep between 1/8" and 1/4" of fall every 12" (NO MORE THAN 5/16")

Do you mean this area, circled in red?

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How large of a drain pipe should I use? 1.5" ?

Also, would I need to plumb in a U trap up near the inlet is? (the part that runs up into the wall)


The distance from the central drain to the wall (on the right side of the pic) is about 10-15'.

Edit:

grayskwerel;651101 wrote: No permit is needed for plumbing changes. While your at it... you could put some insulation between those studs... put up 2 new walls and make a fish room... have your sump and all your aquarium stuff in there. Don't forget to add a register for heating and cooling so you can regulate the temp in the room.

Insulation between those studs on the left is all good, but this area's the garage.. and that's my wife's parking spot.


However, behind the wall behind the water heater is a closet under the stairs, and behind that is a large finished basement room.

It's not heated, so it stays cool... but I'll probably end up putting my non-display tanks down there.


I don't think I'd really want to run plumbing lines halfway across the house for an in-basement sump... Or do I?

 

[rbredding]

Honestly, i need to know better where you plan on putting the drain.. (the P trap should be located in the floor under the drain, not further down in the sanitary line)..

Were you planning on just sending water through it? (NEVER sand/algae/etc)
- if so, you could just pipe a line up through the wall and come down, add a Ptrap just before entering the lateral line (right of the red circle), use a wye to connect to the lateral line..

the real issue you're going to have is venting... you might need to add a studor vent after the p trap (before the wye) to make sure your dump of water during a water change doesn't pull suction at your p trap, emptying it..(can and DOES happen)

match the existing lateral line pipe diameter (1.5"?)

 

[giulianom]

The bathroom is only like 10-15' away from where the new tank will go...

It might just be better for me to put the RODI in the sink cabinet, and run only the RODI output underneath the floor to the back of the tank stand where a small holding tank will probably go to feed an ATO.

I presume the plastic tubing can be run for a good distance without leaking?


As for water changes, I have one of those long siphon hoses that attaches to the sink faucet...

 

[rbredding]

GiulianoM;651143 wrote: As for water changes, I have one of those long siphon hoses that attaches to the sink faucet...

I PROMISE....

if you have the ability to set your system up so it will drain itself for a water change.. (by manual switch of course).. you will LOVE it forever..

I would just plan on having a separate pump in your sump that will pump water and drain into the lateral connection i was talking about before.. just make sure that where you tie in, you've got a studor vent..

you'll be VERY happy to have that setup..

 

[giulianom]

Good ideas.

Basically, I was thinking of putting in a hose tap and drain in the wall, like you would have for a clothes washer setup.


I will take some more pictures tonight or over the weekend, and take some measurements...

 

[rbredding]

GiulianoM;651149 wrote: Good ideas.

Basically, I was thinking of putting in a hose tap and drain in the wall, like you would have for a clothes washer setup.


I will take some more pictures tonight or over the weekend, and take some measurements...

nah.. just use 1" or 1.5" pvc and when you get at the wall, change to black nylon flexible hose, then connect to a pump that sits inside your sump (like a quiet one or maybe a valve off your manifold or something like that.. )

 

[grayskwerel]

Rbredding;651121 wrote: the real issue you're going to have is venting... you might need to add a studor vent after the p trap (before the wye) to make sure your dump of water during a water change doesn't pull suction at your p trap, emptying it..(can and DOES happen)

match the existing lateral line pipe diameter (1.5"?)

As long as the P trap is level, it will not suction out of the P. That is the whole purpose of the P trap. They used to use an S trap but it had siphoning issues. The long flat part prevents it from siphoning out as the water settles in that (level) section and falls back into the P. The system itself is vented through plumbing vents through the roof so he wont need a vent before the wye.

 

[rbredding]

grayskwerel;651196 wrote: As long as the P trap is level, it will not suction out of the P. That is the whole purpose of the P trap. They used to use an S trap but it had siphoning issues. The long flat part prevents it from siphoning out as the water settles in that (level) section and falls back into the P. The system itself is vented through plumbing vents through the roof so he wont need a vent before the wye.

that is NOT the purpose of the p trap, the P trap is used to create an assembly that is impenetrable to sewer gas, preventing the gas from moving up into the living space (since gas cannot pas through a liquid without force)

a P trap only works properly if vented that is why a studor vent was created in the first place.. (to properly vent a sink where a vent stack was not practical)

I see you're a home inspector.. and you're right.. a P trap should do it... but the plumbing code says that you will need a vent after that p trap

the reason the plumbing code says that is to prevent the siphon (caused by a rush of water) from pulling the trap dry..

p traps dont prevent siphon, that can only be accomplished with a vent

 

[grayskwerel]

Rbredding;651204 wrote: that is NOT the purpose of the p trap, the P trap is used to create an assembly that is impenetrable to sewer gas, preventing the gas from moving up into the living space (since gas cannot pas through a liquid without force)

a P trap only works properly if vented that is why a studor vent was created in the first place.. (to properly vent a sink where a vent stack was not practical)

I see you're a home inspector.. and you're right.. a P trap should do it... but the plumbing code says that you will need a vent after that p trap

the reason the plumbing code says that is to prevent the siphon (caused by a rush of water) from pulling the trap dry..

p traps dont prevent siphon, that can only be accomplished with a vent

The S-Trap was invented to create a barrier to prevent sewer gases from entering the living area. Great idea but just like with most great ideas there were initially imperfections with it and there were siphoning issues with the S-Trap even with the vent so the S-Trap was modified to a P-Trap to prevent the siphoning issue, hence "the whole purpose of the P-Trap"... to prevent siphoning issues. Each main vertical drain pipe in the house extends through the roof creating a vent to prevent siphoning (vent stack). You are correct... he does need a vent, but the vent is already there and as long as the air can come in from the vent on the main line with no standing water between the P-Trap and the vent... the water will settle in the flat level part of the P-Trap and prevent siphoning. We are on the same page... just looking at it from different angles.:up: I think we just hijacked this thread... sorry Giuliano!

 

[giulianom]

Quoth Admiral Akbar,

"It's a TRAP!"

 

[giulianom]

grayskwerel;651936 wrote: I think we just hijacked this thread... sorry Giuliano!

A long and verbose description of the differences between a P-trap and a S-trap? :up:


In any case, I have a structural engineer coming out to look at my support beam and rafters on Thursday morning.

I'll ask him if he has any opinion on the plumbing question, too...

 

[rbredding]

GiulianoM;652922 wrote: I'll ask him if he has any opinion on the plumbing question, too...

it's all going to depend on where you tie in the new drain line...

 

[giulianom]

I picked up a "Washing Machine Outlet Box" from the local big box, which I plan to open up the wall and install for the water source and drain.


The fixture came with brass on/off ball valves, and a knock-out for the drain pipe in the center. I only plan to use the cold water tap..

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The tank will be going above the garage door section, up against the outside wall and parallell to the three joists shown here with the blue arrows:

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I had a structural engineer visit, and I plan to reinforce the 3 x joists with sister beams on either side (2 sister beams per joist).


The water source copper piping will go up near the green arrow, and the water drain will go off to the right, along the length of the garage wall, and to the primary drain.

 

[giulianom]

Some more pictures for planning layout purposes...

So the drain and water tap will start here, going up through the stud into the wall above - around the area above the garage door rail.

It will take a vertical to horizontal 90 bend (or a trap) and go off to the right to meet the wall.

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Once it reaches the wall, it will take another horizontal 90 to the right, and go along the top area of the outside wall - across and above the windows.

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Continuing across and above the windows, towards the right.

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Reaching the far wall across from the garage door, the drain pipe may be attached to either the ~3" pipe going into the bathroom above (it's the toilet pipe), or the narrower 1.5" pipe coming off from the right (it's the bathroom sink drain).

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Another view of the plumbing area.

I would probably tap into the copper piping for the sink, to feed the water source. The copper pipe run would go back along the outside wall along side the drain.

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The distance from the garage door to the opposite wall is about 20 feet...

Where would I need to put things in like traps (P or S?), studor vents, etc?

And how much of a slope would I need to maintain across that whole run?