Question about Zoanthids

[toccoa fish man]

I mean no disrespect to any hobbyist here, I just wanted opinions on a question I've been wondering for awhile. Why are zooanthids like the holy grail of coral hobbyists? I mean I think they're kind of neat and all too, but there is NO WAY I'm spending a grand to buy a bunch of zooanthids to carpet a tank that might get stressed and nuke my tank anyway with palytoxin (or me).

I know that they are hardy and can be cloned fairly easily and all, but still....there are corals that do a much better job of covering the tanks quickly and if you're going to spend so much money, why not just go SPS? I suppose I just don't get why they have such high market value. Without this coming across as rude, could someone enlighten me? Some of the people who sell them or bargain for them almost seem like the kind of kids who used to try to sell you some coveted "Magic the Gathering" card or something, like having a special color makes them like a real ****** or something.....sorry to those of you who sell and are pretty much regular guys.

I realize that very little else looks like neon play-doh the way they do, but am I right to say that some of the market is kind of pretentiousness like trendy golf clubs or BMWs or whatnot...like people showing off what sort of strange rare color they found and how much they paid for it?

 

[y-not]

Toccoa Fish Man;998768 wrote: I realize that very little else looks like neon play-doh the way they do, but am I right to say that some of the market is kind of pretentiousness like trendy golf clubs or BMWs or whatnot...like people showing off what sort of strange rare color they found and how much they paid for it?

Yeah, for some it's a status thing.
Like Bgcoop8784 said, it's the same way with any coral.

I pick what I </em>like. What complements what I already have.

My son, who is almost 12 years old, really likes the brains but can't seem to keep them alive in his tank. He loves the Zoas as well. They do really well in his tank. So he sees thinks of them as little flowers and wants to see most all of his live rock covered with them.

It's his tank. I pretty much let him decide what he wants in it.

I've found that regardless of what you spent, $20 or $1000, the average non-reefer is generally amazed. They can't tell a $20 piece from a $1000 piece. And if you tell'em you dropped a $1000 on a coral, chances are they'll never get into reefing.

On the other hand, if you want to encourage others to get into reefing, like I do, then I tell them that once you've got the hardware in place, it's only as expensive as you make it.

So yes, it can be a very pretentiousness hobby. Or it can be very modest yet still very impressive.
It's all in the eyes of the hobbyist.

 

[saltbubbles]

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Toccoa Fish Man;998768 wrote:

I realize that very little else looks like neon play-doh the way they do, but am I right to say that some of the market is kind of pretentiousness like trendy golf clubs or BMWs or whatnot...like people showing off what sort of strange rare color they found and how much they paid for it?

</span>

That is part of your answer. We all find beauty in very different things, some people might ask: "Why do you like sticks? There is not a lot of movement, hard to keep, colors vary from tank to tank, hard to keep, slower growth, calcium hogs and very high chance of accidental frags. It could just break your heart if you have huge colonies like Ralph's or Dave's to name a few.

To me zoas are my favorite because they resemble flowers and yes may they look play-dohey but think about it, could you replicate those colors? The amount of color variation you get from a single polyp is very neat. Also, you can sell a frag from a zoa sooner that an SPS. Would I pay $1000 for a single polyp? No.

Like everything in life, you have a choice and others' may seem wrong to you but for them it is the right one. We all splurge on things that may seem silly to others sometimes

 

[snowmansnow]

IMO Its a waste to pay big $ for a coral, when before long, they would be able to be had for MUCH cheaper. PERSONALLY I'm not into designer corals because of the $.

Take the chalice craze
Then the acan craze
What always amuses me is when I see "limited edition".... really? That generally means there are only SO MANY of something that will be produced... Corals grow, reproduce, get fragged, given away... and the $ plummets.

All cool stuff.. all readily available once folks started fragging.

I'm not knocking anyone who HAS expensive corals, but its just not my personal taste.

B

 

[marquiseo]

Toccoa Fish Man;998768 wrote: I mean no disrespect to any hobbyist here, I just wanted opinions on a question I've been wondering for awhile. Why are zooanthids like the holy grail of coral hobbyists? I mean I think they're kind of neat and all too, but there is NO WAY I'm spending a grand to buy a bunch of zooanthids to carpet a tank that might get stressed and nuke my tank anyway with palytoxin (or me).

I know that they are hardy and can be cloned fairly easily and all, but still....there are corals that do a much better job of covering the tanks quickly and if you're going to spend so much money, why not just go SPS? I suppose I just don't get why they have such high market value. Without this coming across as rude, could someone enlighten me? Some of the people who sell them or bargain for them almost seem like the kind of kids who used to try to sell you some coveted "Magic the Gathering" card or something, like having a special color makes them like a real ****** or something.....sorry to those of you who sell and are pretty much regular guys.

I realize that very little else looks like neon play-doh the way they do, but am I right to say that some of the market is kind of pretentiousness like trendy golf clubs or BMWs or whatnot...like people showing off what sort of strange rare color they found and how much they paid for it?

They aren't considered holy grails of corals. Zoanthids are the only corals that come in several different morphs and colors. Even so, the same coral you buy can morph into something spectacular. $200 pp is a bit excessive but if people are willing to buy it then that is what the market will set it as. When I started in this hobby, zoanthids were becoming the FAD coral of the time and still is. I was informed that SPS were that before Zoanthids. Zoanthids are slowly phasing out and LPS (chalices and Acanthos mostly) are taking on as the new FAD.

Zoanthids can be regarded as collector corals just like SPS. Your example of a trading card game is spot on to what some hobbyists regard corals as. There are different types of hobbyists in which collectors tend to spend the most money for rare/uncommon corals. It is their free will to do so because it is how they choose to be apart.

If you want to change the price of corals, grow it and sell it at a cheaper price to change the market, otherwise, what you see is what you will pay until the FAD ends.

 

[genesis]

Toccoa Fish Man;998768 wrote: I mean no disrespect to any hobbyist here, I just wanted opinions on a question I've been wondering for awhile. Why are zooanthids like the holy grail of coral hobbyists? I mean I think they're kind of neat and all too, but there is NO WAY I'm spending a grand to buy a bunch of zooanthids to carpet a tank that might get stressed and nuke my tank anyway with palytoxin (or me).

I know that they are hardy and can be cloned fairly easily and all, but still....there are corals that do a much better job of covering the tanks quickly and if you're going to spend so much money, why not just go SPS? I suppose I just don't get why they have such high market value. Without this coming across as rude, could someone enlighten me? Some of the people who sell them or bargain for them almost seem like the kind of kids who used to try to sell you some coveted "Magic the Gathering" card or something, like having a special color makes them like a real ****** or something.....sorry to those of you who sell and are pretty much regular guys.

I realize that very little else looks like neon play-doh the way they do, but am I right to say that some of the market is kind of pretentiousness like trendy golf clubs or BMWs or whatnot...like people showing off what sort of strange rare color they found and how much they paid for it?

Me personally I like zoas and palyps becuase of all the different varities you can go for. To me it makes no sense to pay for an "ultra" type. I'm building my zoa/polyps garden now and it may not be full of high end ones but I care more about the contrast in color, size and variety and most important cost effective.

 

[sucio_reefer]

I think another major part of it is just plain old human nature. Ppl in general tend to want for the "best" out there. So of course prices are gonna be pushed to the max tht ppl will be willing to pay for any type of coral.

With fragging the price can come down but only if fellow reefers are willing to drop the price. Problem is ppl don't want to "lose" money so to speak, so instead of fragging and offering at lower prices they try to match or exceed the market price. So the cycle continues.

 

[saltbubbles]

SnowManSnow;998815 wrote:
What always amuses me is when I see "limited edition".... really? That generally means there are only SO MANY of something that will be produced... Corals grow, reproduce, get fragged, given away... and the $ plummets.



B

I absolutely agree, how LE can something be and not be protected? C'mon it's the ocean. However, I do love me some bloodshots, oompa loompas, rainbows, utter chaos and the list goes on

 

[y-not]

sucio_reefer;998839 wrote: I think another major part of it is just plain old human nature. Ppl in general tend to want for the "best" out there. So of course prices are gonna be pushed to the max tht ppl will be willing to pay for any type of coral.

With fragging the price can come down but only if fellow reefers are willing to drop the price. Problem is ppl don't want to "lose" money so to speak, so instead of fragging and offering at lower prices they try to match or exceed the market price. So the cycle continues.

That reminds me of something a LFS guy was telling me while fragging out some pieces.

From time to time, someone will have some rather "cool" looking something or other. Frag it, give it some sort of wild or awesome sounding name, jack up the price and put it up on Ebay, Craigslist, etc..

Basically taking an otherwise good looking coral and trying to get WAY more for a frag than they originally paid for the coral it's self. Just because of the made up name.

 

[tonymission]

saltbubbles;998841 wrote: I absolutely agree, how LE can something be and not be protected? C'mon it's the ocean. However, I do love me some bloodshots, oompa loompas, rainbows, utter chaos and the list goes on

Well they're protected to an extent -- an example is the high end sticks. The sources intentionally control the sales of these to restrict supply. Battlecoral's Bloodbath Unicorn was very hyped after Adam posted pictures of his colony yet he wouldn't sell any. Then he posts a $1000 pack up with a frag of it included and refused to cut any others -- still in high demand. So there is one frag out there in the public (yes I have it lol). He's turned down $500 offers for the piece.

There are guys in Atlanta (our own club members) that I've approached for some cuts for some rare Reef Raft pieces and I was essentially told none are available right now. I'm not mad at em! Few ways to look at that but ultimately even the end users want to feel a little exclusive and don't want everyone to have what they have. Especially for less than they paid. Not sure if that's top level thinking but it factors into it at least subconsciously. Maybe I'll consider that when they want a discount from me in a year or two.

These things are worth what someone will pay for them. If no one pays then the price goes down. $200 pp seems expensive but someone out there is paying that and someone paid that to get it in the first place. You can have a real nice reef tank with none of these pieces but there's a certain collector element that makes it fun... Finding a piece, negotiating for it and then waiting to get it. Just like I collected cards as a kid. So many people that don't collect these pieces love to poo poo those that do but multiple tiers in the hobby is good for everyone. Drives down prices on my common pieces. We all have something to be interested in.

 

[jennm]

It's all about marketing

And people can only charge, what other people will pay.

I never understood all that, and I have been in the trade for over 14 years now.

Jenn

 

[saltbubbles]

tonymission;998843 wrote: Well they're protected to an extent -- an example is the high end sticks. The sources intentionally control the sales of these to restrict supply. Battlecoral's Bloodbath Unicorn was very hyped after Adam posted pictures of his colony yet he wouldn't sell any. Then he posts a $1000 pack up with a frag of it included and refused to cut any others -- still in high demand. So there is one frag out there in the public (yes I have it lol). He's turned down $500 offers for the piece.

There are guys in Atlanta (our own club members) that I've approached for some cuts for some rare Reef Raft pieces and I was essentially told none are available right now. I'm not mad at em! Few ways to look at that but ultimately even the end users want to feel a little exclusive and don't want everyone to have what they have. Especially for less than they paid. Not sure if that's top level thinking but it factors into it at least subconsciously. Maybe I'll consider that when they want a discount from me in a year or two.

These things are worth what someone will pay for them. If no one pays then the price goes down. $200 pp seems expensive but someone out there is paying that and someone paid that to get it in the first place. You can have a real nice reef tank with none of these pieces but there's a certain collector element that makes it fun... Finding a piece, negotiating for it and then waiting to get it. Just like I collected cards as a kid. So many people that don't collect these pieces love to poo poo those that do but multiple tiers in the hobby is good for everyone. Drives down prices on my common pieces. We all have something to be interested in.

True, but I didn't mean protected as in another member not spreading it to keep it from becoming commonplace and losing value. Stores do that too and it drives me nuts. You will sometimes see huge colonies of dead or dying SPS. I mean as in it being protected from harvesting

 

[cutman1975]

On this subject people who know me and have seen my collection know i love zoas and chalices. Yes have I paid big money for them yes . I have some reef raft pieces i have not showed many people because there not for sale tony from reef raft himself called me and told me not to sell to hold on to because the guy who has the right to get these pieces from the ocean can not get them anymore and Tonys colony melted i paid three hundred an eye now there r only a few of use that even have these now, not even the person who they originated from has them any more. Tony From rr wants my colony that I have he has offered huge money for my colony. Now the reason i buy from the main guys is because when u frag most people want to know where u got it from. Some people know these guys and will call them and ask if u got the piece from them so they now its origins i know this for fact because pieces i have sold people have called Richard or mike witch is cornbread and sexy to check. Back to subject everyone think all zoas r easy to grow some r some r very slow hallucinations grow slow there fore demand a big price pieces such as pink kranks grow fast they r a nice looking yes and that's why they get mid price Rastas grow extremely fast so there price is on the lower end they use to be very high in price. I get people on here all the time saying that my prices on stuff r high but most of my stuff u dont see everyday. And I can post some thing on other clubs and sell within ten min of posting, because they now the value and the rate of growth. So i like the stuff u dont see all the time and yes I will pay the price at times but i also bundle meaning I'll buy 3 or 4 thousand dollars worth at one time. Saves on shipping and u get bigger pieces. But everyone has there own taste and price there willing to pay.