Questions for those that have a basement setup.

Adam

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When I started my system a little over two years ago I had problems with the sand clumping due to Alk precipitating after I started dosing about 3 to 4 months in. Over the last year I don’t see much, if any, new clumping in the sand. But I continue to struggle with Alk consumption and lowered pH. I’m going to list as much as I can about my system below.

My entire system is in my basement and consists of an in-wall 210 display, a 60 frag and a 120 sump that reside in a fish/sump room. Total volume is approx 325 gallons. I have Chaeto in the center chamber in the sump and an ATS plumbed externally. Both are lit on a reverse cycle. My skimmer is a custom 48” MTC MVX that also runs externally. It pulls its air from an outside line that has a activated carbon chamber installed in case any aerosols get sprayed nearby. The exit air line runs to a DIY skimmate locker I made that has a carbon canister installed so the air leaving the bucket doesn’t stink the whole basement up. The bucket sits on the floor of the sump room.

My basement is concrete on three sides and day light on the back wall. The HVAC system for the basement is standalone and neither it, or the system for the floors above, have any type of fresh air input. I know that lower pH is mostly, if not entirely, dependent on the amount of CO2 in the water and surrounding air. All three tanks have ample surface agitation and there is an exhaust fan in the ceiling of the fish room. I have found that when the weather permits me to open a window down there that the pH will stay elevated and the Alk will stay stable between 9 and 9.5dkh. I had been dosing 2part with Cal during the day and Alk at night. My normal dose was 125ml per day. About 2 week ago I switched to dosing fully saturated Kalk at a rate of 1.54 gallons a day, being dosed 24/7. I did this in the hope that the Kalk would offset the CO2, but this does not seem to be the case and I’ve had to dose for Alk to keep the level up. It’s dropping at a level of 1 to .6dkh a day and the pH doesn’t rebound as high during the photo period. I switched to Kalk because I’m planning on firing up a CARX soon. But right now, the extra CO2 is kind of putting me off on the idea. Coral growth has been pretty good and soon 2part is going to be harder to keep up.

As you all know there is no way I can open a window this time of year for any length of time. I’d like to know if I have missed something or if there is something else I can try before I break down and install an air exchange system in the basement. So, if you have a basement system is this something you’re dealing with or dealt with in the past and how have you combated CO2?
 
Your getting great growth and color.   Seeing your system grow over time imho your sysetm is running as it should and even exceeds most systems.   What is it that your not seeing that is the issue?  pH is just a number to keep an eye on.  It doesn't (in 95% of cases) matter what your pH is at.  Of course, Its always great to have as much fresh air around your water line as possible to help wih air and gas exchange.  But, I dont see an issue with the way you have setup everything.  I wouldnt be concerned in the least and many would kill to see the results you have.

You are using a ton of Alk and Calcium (I was using 175ml a day before I switched over to my calcium reactor) so I would get your Calcium reactor setup and transition to it.  You should see great results and consistency.  You will see a slight decrease in pH with the addition of more cO2 in your system.  You can help by dripping your effluent in a turbulent area of your sump to help dissipate some of the cO2 being released.

One question: Since your running an algea scrubber are you running it 24/7 or for 18 hrs or so?  If its 18hrs or less are you shutting the leds down during the day or night?  It may have some effect on the release of cO2 (pH levels during the night) if your leds on your scrubber are off during the night coinciding with your tanks light schedule.  Its probably minimal at best, but may have some effect.  Just a thought.
 
Well I've confirmed the amount of kalk I'm dosing is the correct amount to match up with 125ml of 2part. So unless my damand has gone up more or should be right. You have access to my Apex and you can see the adjustments I did Saturday and Sunday. After yesterday's adjustment to 9.5dkh from 8.62 the pH stayed at 8.14 through the photo period and today its 8.04 and the alk is 8.51.

Right now the co2 is 730ppm in the basement and I just got down here. It will go up higher the longer I'm down here. When a window is cracked the co2 will be between 450 and 525. Just in the time to type this it's up to 748ppm... now if I have people over or workout in the basement it really shoots up.
 
I had simulator experience with co2 and lower ph in my system.

Couple thing I’ve done to improve it,

1. I ran small small tubing to skimmer from outside

2. Dosing was kept to similar balanced lever and since I was doing full triton method, alk was at 7.3-7.4 range

3. I out multiple heavy airstones for additional adjutation of water in the refugium.

4. I used kessil halo 380 light for refugium Chaeto and would trim half of 5 gallon bucket every week. Growth was excellent.

Having done all that with balanced system my ph would go upto 8.26 during peak 6pm and down to about 8.1  night time.

Dosing lime water to keep it ph higher maybe something to consider as well but if we are gettting good color and growth no need to change.

Overall It seems to be a very common problem with high co2 in the house. I’m curious to see how my next system will be in the basement.

May adjusting vent and creating green house with bunch of mangroves?

Would love to know more from other members with basement setup and large systems how they control their ph swings and co2 issues.

PS I heard you have an awesome system Adam! Post some pics @Brett & Adam

thanks



 
https://www.co2meter.com/collections/desktop/products/co2mini-co2-indoor-air-quality-monitor

 
i have a basement setup and also dose kalk, and it has really worked out well. I do it a little different in that I've started dosing it from my ATO container. Simple.

The other thing I did was cut out my CaRx. I'm not sure if you're running one, but you may be fighting the CaRx too as it is adding CO2 into the system.

As far as CO2 in the room goes anything can help. Even just a fan in there to move air around can help a bit.
 
I have an oscillating fan blowing into the room. I believe the exhaust fan in ceiling the fish room is pulling air from the bottom of the floor above, right down the stairs and the fish room is adjacent to those stairs. When I'm able to leave a window open it gets much better within a couple days and I think less air from the rest of the house enters the basement. I also wonder how much co2 is being emitted from the skimmer which just collects on the floor of the room.

I have not started adding co2 into the carx yet. It's plumbed, ready to go and has water circulating through it, just no co2 yet. I don't want to fire it up until I can get this dialed in.

I've tried running kalk with my ATO and it didn't work out well. I have 28sf of water surface area in the fish room that is connected to this system, not to mention any evaporation from the ATS. The system goes through 2.5 to 4+ gallons a day depending on humidity. That's way more Kalk than I need! My ATO container is a 32 gallon brute... it's relatively inaccessible too. So, kalk stirrer is the only way. What I'm thinking about trying is dosing the whole 1.54 gallons of saturated Kalk between 9pm and 7am-9am. Night time, when there's no major photosynthesis, is when I see the big drop in pH. Then following photo period just can't rebound from the massive drop at night and the result is a continual drop in alk and pH day by day. Maybe doing all the kalk at night might help? I know 1.5-2 gallons added over 10-12 hours will have no effect to the ATO sensors other than keeping the bottom one covered but not tripping the alarm on the second.

I'm also strongly considering swapping out the exhaust fan with one of these:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Panasonic-FV-04VE1-WhisperComfort-40-20-or-20-10-CFM-Ceiling-Spot-Energy-Recovery-Ventilator?gclid=Cj0KCQjwvezZBRDkARIsADKQyPmQyYgk8hUuQHzN01br-sE1w7pwbPLKugxVjdimUTNlLMtv0oksdNEaAueBEALw_wcB

Got the idea from a guy on R2R. This will be a whole lot easier to install than a full ERV and I don't have to mess with the lenght of the lines with a traditional ERV. Those longer lines need to be tested for air flow right after installing so the unit doesn't remove more air than returned and vise versa, then a damper added to the higher flow line so the two match air flow. This unit is a good bit less expensive as well.

Any other thoughts are more than welcome!
 
Hey bud.  I have a co2 monitor in my office/tank room which is front room on the first level of the house.  I get similar levels to what you see as well.  My pH is typically 8.1 before lights and creeps upwards of 8.3.  These pH values are what i see If Im around in the house and co2 is 600-700.  If im in the office working its around 700-800 and i dont notice much of a pH drop.  Drops to 450 to 500 with window open and i do see a pH increase of  around .1 if the windows are left open for significant time.  And 1000-1200 if working out in there and ihavent noticed a drop in pH as co2 levels return to 700 range in a couple hours.  If i leave on vacation i see the pH creep upwards of 8.4 to 8.5.

the thing that i notice that changes pH more than the CO2 air levels is if i have algae/dinos on the tank walls and sand its significantly higher.  And yes i still am fighting Amphinidium dinos.  Scraping the glass and stirring the sand can lower the next days value by .1 or more. So consumption is a big factor like Brett mentioned.

The alkalinity consumption you are seeing seems pretty normal to me.

Hope that helps.
 
Thanks guys. I've figured one thing out for sure, I can't continue dosing Kalk like this. It's just going through to much and if I forget to refill the jugs I run out in no time. So without a good Kalk stirrer it's just too much to keep up with. Another variable to the way I've been dosing it is that the 2.5 gallon jug I'm using sits on the floor of the fish room with the lid slightly ajar to allow for displacement. It was brought to my attention that the high co2 levels closer to the floor would reduce to potency of the kalk the longer it sat there, to what extent I don't know without putting a pH probe in there. But its just one more variable I'd just not like to deal with. I knew this was a short term test anyway, and it's not working. But I did learn a few things.

If I dose Soda Ash in the morning there is the normal pH rise we all see. The difference is, it will not start dropping immediately. For several day now I've dosed it in the morning after feeding and it will climb up .15 to .2ish and stay there through out the photo period. As soon as the lights are at a lower level in the ramp, roughly an hour before they turn off, the pH starts to drop a little. After lights out it starts dropping like a rock. Last night around 7pm it was 8.08 after being 8.06~8.08 since 8:40am. By 8pm it was 8.03, midnight 7.99 and bottomed out at 7.85 this morning at 8:30am. I have done something similar 3 days in a row now after stopping the Kalk. This tells me that the co2 is directly responsible for what I'm seeing. So tonight after testing the big three and adjusting the levels I'm going back to 2part until I can DIY a kalk stirrer out of a TLF unit.

The other thing I'm going to do is order that ERV I linked above. When I get it I will replace the exhaust fan with that unit. Once that and the stirrer are done I will try dosing Kalk again except I will do the entire dosing from 9pm to 7:30am and see how that goes. If all is well I'll fire up the carx and see what impact it has and make adjustments from there.
 
I really feel your pain. I've been running a basement system for about 13 years and have battled low pH for many if not all of those years. I have an in-wall 210 just like you with a fish room behind. No windows in the fish room. I run a bathroom fan constantly to keep the ocean smell from the rest of my lower level. I have thought about piping the intakes to my skimmer outdoors but have never found the time to do so. I have a CA reactor and Kalk reactor which keeps CA perfectly inline. All my top-off is through the Kalk Reactor but I don't want to rely on evaporative cooling (since the lower level rooms start off on the damp side) so all my cooling is done with a chiller plumbed outside and my topoff amount is limited. I have clumping sand (my sand dwellers keep most of it granulated).

In general my pH runs in the 7.8 to 8.1 range with an average (according to Fusion of 7.9). Yea, 7.9 pH. It used to be about .1 higher when the 90 gallon refugeium full of chaeto was running but it has always been a struggle.

I stressed about it for years but I have come to accept it as normal for my system. Randy considers 7.8 to 8.5 perfectly acceptable, especially with higher alkalinity (which I have) so I'm good with leaving it at 7.9 average.

I've tried soda ash but it isn't a cure. I guess you could dose it but you are putting your CA/ALK out of balance. Better to spend your efforts on Kalk automation. If you want some tips on Kalk top-off automation, let me know.

I too have been tempted by the idea of an air exchanger but have not pulled the trigger.
 
Great advice Schwaggs.  Adam have you considered running Soda Lime?  I use to run it through an air canister and saw a .10 to .15 difference in my pH levels.  But, determined over a year later that the cost wasnt worth the increase in pH levels as I didn't see any positive effects on coral growth or color.
 
Hey guys. I've decided to hold off on the ERV for now. I can always do it later.

What I'm going to try is a co2 scrubber (Soda Lime) run in a loop from my skimmer. It's supposed to really extent the life of the lime this way and it will be real easy to do with my setup. I'm also going to try Randy's, RHF, recipe for high pH Alk for the 2part component using Sodium Hydroxide instead of soda ash. The combo is a lot less costly than an ERV and less work too, while giving a nice boost to pH. This recipe has a pH of 14+, much higher than soda ash or Kalk. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/second-new-diy-two-part-recipe-with-higher-ph-boost.357080/">Here's a link</a>

Once I get these dialed in I'm going to ease off the 2part and fire up the carx. The effluent for the carx dumps into the same sump chamber that the skimmer pulls from so I should see a benefit of the co2 scrubber there as well. I'll let everyone know how it goes as I get each component online.
 
Let me know how that works out. I bought some soda lime last year with that in mind. Heck, It got buried in all the junk and I forgot about it. I even forget why I bought the sodium hydroxide but I have some of that too. As you well know, I suffer from the closed basement syndrome also.
 
Doug, If you mix up any sodium hydroxide be careful, it gets pretty damn hot.

I'll keep everyone in the loop as this progresses.
 
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