Set me straight: What I have learned in 5 months

[jrosenblum]

So... I'm a little frustrated and confused (and having a lot of fun) as I try to parse the seemingly conflicting information I am getting regarding Live Rock, biological filtration, phosphates, nitrates, and the sump. I've been in the hobby all of 5 months and the best I can come up with are the following Two Disappointments and Seven Rookie Rules </em>






2 Disappointments<ol>
<li>Live Rock is great, but not for denitrification; and,</li>
<li>Phosphates that matter most can\'t be tested by what you can afford</li>
</ol>7 Rookie Rules</em><ol>
<li>Minimize food while adequately providing for the nutritional needs of the stuff you care about</li>
<li>Remove crap before it decomposes (skimming, for example)</li>
<li>Minimize anything that unintentionally collects crap, clean anything that intentionally collects crap</li>
<li>If you like being a farmer then have macroalgae, an algae farm, a DSB, etc. which will reduce *some* nitrates and phosphates but you better harvest it / tend to it -- because you like being a farmer, this should not be a problem.</li>
<li>Export the bulk of phosphates and nitrates via water changes</li>
<li>If you want a refuge for critters and the like, have a refugium for that reason alone</li>
<li>Run chemicals to remove excess nitrates and phosphates too the extent that #1 -#5 aren\'t adequate</li>
</ol>I am skeptical (and I am scared to say this publicly) regarding the notion that LR has denitrification value although it clearly has filtration value as it hosts a vast array of inhabitants which reduce crap to nitrates. I say this because I don't understand how there is enough water flow through LR to provide meaningful denitrification. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/feature/index.php">http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/feature/index.php</a> raises a similar question while also pointing out that the growth of corraline algae and other coverings would further reduce water flow.



So I translate the above to my specific tank as follows<ol>
<li>The filter material at the entrance to my sump collects crap that I need to clean regularly but stops my sump from becoming a nitrate factory</li>
<li>My skimmer, the filter material and water changes do the most to export / eliminate Nitrate and Phosphate in my system and that\'s the way it is for nearly everyone</li>
<li>Purigen and /or chemipure are helping keep nitrates low between water changes</li>
<li>The LR in my sump (completely submerged) has only the unintentional value of being a refugium for the tunicates, misys shrimp and other bugs which has benefit to water quality (up to a point).</li>
<li>The LR in my display tank is a great host for a variety of stuff which help decompose crap to nitrates</li>
</ol>As far as I can tell, everyone removes crap directly, farms nitrate/phosphate eaters and exports nitrate/phosphates in the form of water changes, and every other filtration activity is essentially about how often one has to do water changes.


Someone set me straight, do I essentially have it or am I have I missed it

 

[tbub1221]

Sounds about rite lol.
All the factors seem to work in there own way , its the combinations of the live rock and detrite eaters then the micro life and chems.
Seems awfully complicated and one would think we would come up with something more , but this just seems best.

 

[sn4k33y3z]

Very Interesting read...

 

[stickx911]

sounds good. Buying LR also imposes the risk of bringing in unwanted pests.

 

[jrosenblum]

Tbub1221;885687 wrote: Sounds about rite lol.
All the factors seem to work in there own way , its the combinations of the live rock and detrite eaters then the micro life and chems.
Seems awfully complicated and one would think we would come up with something more , but this just seems best.

I feel like the simple truth is, "establish a virtuous ammonia -&gt; nitrate cycle, skim and do water changes every 1-2 weeks. Once stable experiment with farming and / or chemicals to delay water changes according to your preferences and psychology."

 

[darrrenjmartin]

Sounds like your on it. What issue are you having. I have been doing this for decades, but like you I have a Fresh tank at 5 months. My nitrates spiked and now they are zero.
Are you having an issue mitigating nitrates?

 

[jrosenblum]

darrrenjmartin;885726 wrote: Sounds like your on it. What issue are you having. I have been doing this for decades, but like you I have a Fresh tank at 5 months. My nitrates spiked and now they are zero.
Are you having an issue mitigating nitrates?

My nitrates are &lt;= 2 which I feel is probably good enough. Because new macros don't thrive and algae is under control, I assume the phophates that matter (but I can't meaure) are okay - phosphates I can measure are 0 as far as I can tell from matching colors. I guess the issue I'm having is understanding what are reasonable excpectations and what are high-value things I should do as opposed to voodoo... If you know what I mean.

How do I get Nitrates to 0 and do I need to? If the answe is chaeto then I am farming and thats fine if it matters to get them to 0... Does it?

 

[heathlindner25]

you don't want nitrates at 0, 2 is a great number

 

[jrosenblum]

heathlindner25;885755 wrote: you don't want nitrates at 0, 2 is a great number

Can you remind me / tell me why 2 is better than 0? I'm happy that 2 is good, i just want to understand it better.

 

[heathlindner25]

Coral use/eat nitrate. just like you dont want 0 phosphate either, 0.03 or less ,but not 0

 

[y-not]

Regarding the crap that collects on the LR, I have a 18 inch section of siphon tube that happens to fit right inside one of my return pump jets. I slip it into the jet, turn it on and blow off the LR about once a month.

I'm always amazed as to how much crap collects on the LR. Sure, it clouds up the water but once I'm done blowing off the LR, I start pulling water from the tank for my weekly WC.

It seems to help keep the nitrates down to a reasonable level.

 

[darrrenjmartin]

Your nitrate appear under control.
I set up a little fishes reactor stuffed with seachem denitrate and a tiny little power head. It worked.
I never had a denitrate reactor ever really work. This time it seems it does.
It took several months to take I guess. It spiked to 30ppm and i added I have a small ball of Cheleto in the corner with weekly W.E. It was growing like crazy for a few months. Not so much now. I cut once a month No tangs or marcor algae eaters yet.. I never had any Nuisance algae. But I did get giant clear globs of snot at the bottom. I sucked all snot and exposed sand out. I did just test and it was not detectable on my test &lt; 2ppm.
I have a little red cyno growing on the bottom . I have some old chem clean I may try.
Ive been stocking, so I want my animals really settled in before I treat, if it's still hanging around in 2
weeks.

 

[jrosenblum]

aquaculture;885795 wrote: Just an FYI to the OP, nitrates around 2-5ppm are needed for clams to thrive (if you are into clams)...I said thrive, they can live with less, but they need a little nitrate to process the nutrients and get that tremendous, deep and rich coloring.

Thanks, I did not know that

 

[jrosenblum]

heathlindner25;885770 wrote: Coral use/eat nitrate. just like you dont want 0 phosphate either, 0.03 or less ,but not 0

But "During use of Rowaphos, you will see no ill effects. Additionally, if you are using Rowaphos in a saltwater invertebrate aquarium, hard and soft corals may grow up to approximately three times as fast when phosphate levels are below 0.015 ppm." Seems to suggest that the lower the better....

 

[darrrenjmartin]

Keep your fertilizer as low as you can. You have a new tank ,(and established for that matter)and will move through all sorts of stages. Keeping it a clean as you can is the goal.
I stated before ,I had to remove my sand, because I had some weird clear slime Growth and a spike from something.
LR can start to denitrifying given the proper time and conditions.
That's what the seachem dinitrate reactor is. An anerobic area.
The perfect manifest of this is the tyrees cryptic zone in a tank.
I live by my turkey baster and feather dusting with it. it releases all the critters for feeding and detritus.. And changing my filersock every three to four days.
.
The test kits test all nutrient compounds. Some are more organically reactive Eg Organphosphate as opposed to other phos compounds. You never know exactly what your seeing. And the tests are only accurate enough to give and some indication below 5ppm. If you every have taken a chemistry class. "memorize this rule, but it never applys because everything in practice is an exception. "
Bony minerals Ca,mag,carbonates,will precipitate some phos, which become organically unavailable, yet will still show in a test. Reef salt is so high in dissolved solids, making (increases with SG 1.026)water changes helps by dilution and precipitation. Two fold.
If you have and any macroalgae it will buffer your phos and and Na4. If it gets to low it will start to leach it from the plant or will soak it up.

 

[jrosenblum]

darrrenjmartin;885996 wrote: Keep your fertilizer as low as you can. You have a new tank ,(and established for that matter)and will move through all sorts of stages. Keeping it a clean as you can is the goal.
I stated before ,I had to remove my sand, because I had some weird clear slime Growth and a spike from something.
LR can start to denitrifying given the proper time and conditions.
That's what the seachem dinitrate reactor is. An anerobic area.
The perfect manifest of this is the tyrees cryptic zone in a tank.
I live by my turkey baster and feather dusting with it. it releases all the critters for feeding and detritus.. And changing my filersock every three to four days.
.
The test kits test all nutrient compounds. Some are more organically reactive Eg Organphosphate as opposed to other phos compounds. You never know exactly what your seeing. And the tests are only accurate enough to give and some indication below 5ppm. If you every have taken a chemistry class. "memorize this rule, but it never applys because everything in practice is an exception. "
Bony minerals Ca,mag,carbonates,will precipitate some phos, which become organically unavailable, yet will still show in a test. Reef salt is so high in dissolved solids, making (increases with SG 1.026)water changes helps by dilution and precipitation. Two fold.
If you have and any macroalgae it will buffer your phos and and Na4. If it gets to low it will start to leach it from the plant or will soak it up.

Are you *sure* LR can denitrify? How do you know. We can watch amonia levels go down while nitrites rise, and then we can see nitrites disapear and nitrates increase. We can see this while not touching the tank other than testing water. Have people seen nitrates high and then disapear or even lower in the absense of water changes, macro algae, microalgae bloom, chemicals, etc? Again, I'm a rooky and just trying to understand (while drinking from a firehose of well informed and well intended people trying to help) contradictory information. As I referenced in the OP, there are others questioning this belief, personally I have not heard anyone explain how water moves through LR to the extent necessary to meaningfully encounter the correct bacteria. And, I've never read any report of Nitrates dropping in the presence of LR alone.

Has anyone taken a high nitrate tank that has no LR (or, preferably anything else), done nothing to it but added LR and seen Nitrates decrease without also seeing algae blooms?.

 

[darrrenjmartin]

Well nobody blasted my info. Ther may be a thread of truth"..
I mentioned tyrees cryptic zone. Look it up. It is really cool. Maybe its the plenum back in the day. I used PVC tubes and substrate to create a anerobic void. Tryree methods also employs sponges and such to process organics too. It seems a much more natural way.
Yes denitrate. LR rock with the the correct pourosity lack of flow ,and microbial activity. You have to st up the right conditions.., darkness , time , to support anerobic microbes.
The capacity to process nitrates may be a limiting factor. The rock in a tank condition can't keep up with production, but it is helping.
This is all the seachem dinitrate.and reactor is. porous LR rock and anerobic microbes. No oxygen. The place at the perfect distant from the surface of rock face. Also the correct porosity. This is one of the ways, I conjunction with plants, water exch, saturated mineral content.
A open LR structure will not be nearly the capacity.

 

[darrrenjmartin]

Well nobody blasted my info. There may be a thread of truth"..or just tired.
I mentioned tyrees cryptic zone. Look it up. It is really cool. Maybe its the plenum back in the day. I used PVC tubes and substrate to create a anerobic void. Tryree methods also employs sponges and such to process organics too. It seems a much more natural way.
Yes denitrate. LR rock with the the correct pourosity lack of flow near osmosis and anerrobic microbial activity. You have to st up the right conditions.., darkness , time , to support anerobic microbes.
The capacity to process nitrates may be a limiting factor. The rock in a tank condition can't keep up with production, but it is helping.
This is all the seachem dinitrate.and reactor is. porous LR rock and anerobic microbes. No oxygen. The place at the perfect distant from the surface of rock face. Also the correct porosity, flow. This is one of the ways, I conjunction with plants, water exch, saturated mineral content.
A open LR structure will not be nearly the capacity.
If the nitrates are at polluting levels, this equates to unhealthy tank.
Anerobic microbes live in a perfect heathy tank. So you cant lower 50ppm to 2ppm with this method.
Read seachems denitrate instructions. Bring levels down to less than 10ppm(healthy tank),
then expect results.
If nitrates are high 20ppm+, you can change half the water and still not bring nitrates to 5ppm.
It's a giant battle. Can't seemed to put a dent in it.
Yet most people with heathy tank,less than 5ppm, and invertabrates animals spilling out over the edges, only change 20% a month. Why?
The closer you get to low nitrates the more efficient the systems works. Its like getting in shape, sucks to get there, easy to maintain.