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Pretty interesting video:
Species collection in the Phillippines
- Thread starter miami dolfan
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This video makes me even more interested in tank raised vs caught. By the time the message tolled at the end, I was contemplating dropping out of the hobby. I do not agree with either catch method and am appalled that either is even an option.
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I always heard about this first time watching it ..
Wow
Wow
Wow!! I had no idea - thanks for sharing
I did not watch the whole video, but cyanide has been the industry's dirty little secret...forever.
People wondered why I was fussy about where my fishes came from in my shop. That is why.
I could no more guarantee 100% net caught than anybody else - there is no cyanide detection test, and even if there was, it would have to be performed on a dead specimen.
I was always really careful about where I bought my wild caught fish.
I spent many, MANY years on the anti-cyanide soap box. Nobody cares, really. As long as the fishes are cheap...
Jenn
People wondered why I was fussy about where my fishes came from in my shop. That is why.
I could no more guarantee 100% net caught than anybody else - there is no cyanide detection test, and even if there was, it would have to be performed on a dead specimen.
I was always really careful about where I bought my wild caught fish.
I spent many, MANY years on the anti-cyanide soap box. Nobody cares, really. As long as the fishes are cheap...
Jenn
well, if your livelihood depends on catching wild fish and sell them, then cyanide isn't that bad. but on a holistic level, we need to make sure the future generations see what we're so fortunate to see.
Yeah, it's like the peeps there in the phillipines are more than likely getting by each day, so you can't blame them trying to put food on the table, but if there is a market for it, there will always be someone that will do it the cheapest way possible
on a different note... did you guys see this??
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/03/29/472305876/massive-bleaching-affects-great-barrier-reef">http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/03/29/472305876/massive-bleaching-affects-great-barrier-reef</a>
I need to get out there asap to dive before it goes all down hill
on a different note... did you guys see this??
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/03/29/472305876/massive-bleaching-affects-great-barrier-reef">http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/03/29/472305876/massive-bleaching-affects-great-barrier-reef</a>
I need to get out there asap to dive before it goes all down hill
I can't believe I read that.
Firstly, when the fish dives into the coral head to hide, and the diver squirts the cyanide into the coral head to stun the fish, the coral dies. The inverts that also live within the coral head, also die.
Quite frequently, the fish dies, although usually not right away.
A "good" (cough) juicer can squirt just enough to stun the fish, but not turn its liver to mush. Best case scenario, the fish lives a normal lifespan in captivity, or until the hobbyist kills it... but the coral head on the reef is still dead.
A "bad" juicer overdoses the fish, and does irreparable damage to the fish's system. The liver turns to mush, and we all know what happens if one does not have a functioning liver. This can take from a few days, to a few weeks - just long enough for the fish to make its way from collector to exporter, to importer, to LFS, to hobbyist. Yep, like a game of hot potato and when the music stops, the hobbyist is left wondering why his otherwise healthy-looking fish just up and keeled over a week or so after he brought it home.
In this instance, not only are the fishes dead, but that coral head is dead too, along with all the other environmental damage done by the cyanide.
A lot of the exporters will only buy fishes from the collectors if the collectors buy their cyanide so it's a catch-22 for people who literally live hand-to-mouth, and for whom the difference between a good day and a bad day is to be able to have some chicken to eat with the rice for supper.
It's not OK. It never was OK. NGOs like the now-defunct MAC and now SAIA who has been around for nearly as long, tried to bring awareness but got bogged down in other nonsense and a lot of money got spent and nothing got done.
Back in the early 2000s a bunch of us in the trade bought and paid for a lot of netting material that was shipped to PI via Steve Robinson to help equip divers with humane materials to catch fish. A good net diver can out-fish a juicer any day of the week, and without the collateral damage.
People can and should be mad about this. They should know about this. The industry continues to whitewash it, tries to convince people that it doesn't go on, but PI and Indonesia are the worst.
This doesn't happen everywhere, but where it does happen, it's rampant. It doesn't happen in Hawaii or Australia, or Vanuatu - and yeah a lot of those fishes are more expensive.
You get what you pay for.
I wish more hobbyists and industry types did care - that kind of pressure would help solve the problem once and for all, but in 50 years, it hasn't happened yet.
Jenn
Jenn,
your insight into the hobby and the industry has always been helpful but I can't help but feel that you've misunderstood what I meant by what I said.
If you're fisherman and your whole livelihood depends on the catching and the selling of the marine creatures, then do you really care about what the side effects of the cyanide are? i'm certainly aware that cyanide causes so many ill effects on the fish and the surrounding environment and if I had a choice, i wouldn't want the fish that i end up buying procured through cyanide. From the video, it seems like these folks are not well educated and live in relatively poor community by way they dress and the houses they live in. if that's the case, then what they care about is how many live fish they're able to sell to their vendors. of course folks here think differently. it's a just a matter of perspective and whose shoes you're seeing this issue from.
I'm not saying that all procurement of the wildlife is the same. certainly that there are multiple institutions such as ORA that practice responsible/sustainable methods. but i would guess that there's still a meaningful portion of the industry where their mode of operation is catch wildlife however they can, sell to exporters as fast as they can, ship to lfs as quickly as they can, and let the hobbyists deal with whatever problem the wildlife has. also let's face this fact, part of this industry is based of what people want, their selfishness, and it's partially "look at me look at me". i wonder how many fish actually live out their lives. there's always 2 sides to the same coin if you ask me: what keeps the lfs open and stay open, and what it takes to supply the demands of certain fish. for the sake of argument, we just bred yellow tangs for the first time since the beginning of this industry. so where did those yellow tangs come from all this time...hmmmm i wonder....
in my closing statement, i did mention that we need to be responsible for the environment and let the future generations to see what we're fortunate to see in ours.
I think you're selling the fishermen short in the smarts department. The people closest to the land (or the sea) are intimately aware of the effects of their activities. Do you not think that, given a choice, they'd rather collect sustainably, so that future generations can continue to make a living from the reef, or just keep on slashing and burning and to heck with the future?
The reefs in PI have shown the damage of generations of this, and stuff isn't nearly as abundant as it used to be - even I've seen that in my 15 or so years in the trade. There's stuff you just do not see on stock lists anymore (and probably never saw on lists from more ethical importers.)
Just because these people are poor doesn't make them stupid. They're poor - poor beyond our western notion of 'poor'. Our poor are wealthy by their standards, but that doesn't make them ignorant.
I'm sure that the actual divers swimming around in all that cyanide can't be too healthy for them either. It's not like they can just quit fishing and go work someplace else either - it's not quite that simple. If they quit collecting ornamentals, they are likely to move to another fishery - food fishing (don't even get me started on blast fishing.)
The only way to stop it is to kill demand, and despite the best efforts of a handful of us in the last 15 years, we didn't even manage to make a dent in it. The bottom line, is the bottom line. The insatiable demand for cheap, disposable fishes is far greater than the outrage about how they are collected.
As for yellow tangs, they are native to Hawaii, and have never been collected with cyanide. There have been concerns about the effects of collection for the hobby, on their populations, since they originate in a very small region, so captive propagation is a great way to help relieve the stress on wild populations, but keep the hobby supplied.
The same thing has applied with Banggai Cardinals - they come from a small area in Indonesia and wild collection has stressed the populations. Captive propagation has helped to ease that somewhat.
The issue is about more than just replacing wild caught with captive raised. Without wild caught marine ornamentals, those same poor people are left without a livelihood, so it behooves all of us to encourage humane and sustainable collection whenever possible.
I don't have all the answers, but I did put in a LOT of time over the years, trying to raise awareness, and put my money where my mouth is when it came to helping provide the tools of a sustainable trade to the people who needed them.
Sadly, with an 'oh well' attitude from the overwhelming majority of people in the hobby or trade, my efforts and those of the people I was working with, didn't make a difference.
It's sad.
If the fishes were puppies or kittens we'd be having a different conversation.
Jenn
The reefs in PI have shown the damage of generations of this, and stuff isn't nearly as abundant as it used to be - even I've seen that in my 15 or so years in the trade. There's stuff you just do not see on stock lists anymore (and probably never saw on lists from more ethical importers.)
Just because these people are poor doesn't make them stupid. They're poor - poor beyond our western notion of 'poor'. Our poor are wealthy by their standards, but that doesn't make them ignorant.
I'm sure that the actual divers swimming around in all that cyanide can't be too healthy for them either. It's not like they can just quit fishing and go work someplace else either - it's not quite that simple. If they quit collecting ornamentals, they are likely to move to another fishery - food fishing (don't even get me started on blast fishing.)
The only way to stop it is to kill demand, and despite the best efforts of a handful of us in the last 15 years, we didn't even manage to make a dent in it. The bottom line, is the bottom line. The insatiable demand for cheap, disposable fishes is far greater than the outrage about how they are collected.
As for yellow tangs, they are native to Hawaii, and have never been collected with cyanide. There have been concerns about the effects of collection for the hobby, on their populations, since they originate in a very small region, so captive propagation is a great way to help relieve the stress on wild populations, but keep the hobby supplied.
The same thing has applied with Banggai Cardinals - they come from a small area in Indonesia and wild collection has stressed the populations. Captive propagation has helped to ease that somewhat.
The issue is about more than just replacing wild caught with captive raised. Without wild caught marine ornamentals, those same poor people are left without a livelihood, so it behooves all of us to encourage humane and sustainable collection whenever possible.
I don't have all the answers, but I did put in a LOT of time over the years, trying to raise awareness, and put my money where my mouth is when it came to helping provide the tools of a sustainable trade to the people who needed them.
Sadly, with an 'oh well' attitude from the overwhelming majority of people in the hobby or trade, my efforts and those of the people I was working with, didn't make a difference.
It's sad.
If the fishes were puppies or kittens we'd be having a different conversation.
Jenn
if fishes were puppies and kittens, I'm sure people will still be people. meaning that some people will breed the heck out of then without paying any attention to the wellbeing of them and some will breed responsibly. as a consumer you can choose to buy from reputable breeder or puppy mills, the choice is yours.
as of right now, I still see places like puppies from heaven and the likes open even though you know that not all of the puppies they get are responsibly bred.
as of right now, I still see places like puppies from heaven and the likes open even though you know that not all of the puppies they get are responsibly bred.
one way to kill the demand is to close down all the lfs and ban the import export of the ornamental species, but I'm sure some people are not going to board that boat.
or you can educate people, but that's expensive and time consuming.
pick your method.
or you can educate people, but that's expensive and time consuming.
pick your method.
let me also mention this since we're on this subject.
As a business owner, what do you want to do to stay in business and make a living? sales of course. my current employer knows nothing about the hobby but is willing to write a check in order to have an aquarium. so what did they end up doing? they bought an all-in-one and have people service the tank every now and then. they replace the fish/corals they lost over the course of time by writing more checks. last time i checked, the lfs didn't say no to the checks. so, isn't the lfs as guilty as them in terms of not educating them and teach them? isn't the lfs as culpable as them in terms of supplying wild caught fish to my employer? isn't this situation similar to what the fishermen in PI are in? they are trying to put food on the table, so they go out and catch fish. the lfs tries to stay in business, so they accept checks from the customer and supply the fish.
As a business owner, what do you want to do to stay in business and make a living? sales of course. my current employer knows nothing about the hobby but is willing to write a check in order to have an aquarium. so what did they end up doing? they bought an all-in-one and have people service the tank every now and then. they replace the fish/corals they lost over the course of time by writing more checks. last time i checked, the lfs didn't say no to the checks. so, isn't the lfs as guilty as them in terms of not educating them and teach them? isn't the lfs as culpable as them in terms of supplying wild caught fish to my employer? isn't this situation similar to what the fishermen in PI are in? they are trying to put food on the table, so they go out and catch fish. the lfs tries to stay in business, so they accept checks from the customer and supply the fish.
Jenn,
we can agree to disagree on this subject and i certainly respect/value your opinions. i would like things to be sustainable so that when I revisit PI/Hawaii/Bora Bora/or wherever again I get to scuba dive and see those beautiful creatures. I certainly hope that when I have kids, I could take them there and show them how beautiful things are.
we can agree to disagree on this subject and i certainly respect/value your opinions. i would like things to be sustainable so that when I revisit PI/Hawaii/Bora Bora/or wherever again I get to scuba dive and see those beautiful creatures. I certainly hope that when I have kids, I could take them there and show them how beautiful things are.
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Not all LFS is guilty of this, and I'm not implying your phrase as coming across that way. I've been to a great LFS whereas I was new and I told the owner oh well if a damsel was eaten by a lionfish. I could tell immediately that I struck a nerve and with that LFS education on the hobby I was able to learn from her and saved myself the trouble and probably a lot on livestock as well. As you said earlier, two sides to every coin. (The LFS was Jenn's store) You can't live your entire life without crossing at least one butt head. The only true way of eliminating this type of collecting is to stop buying. As in case with the herion issues going on across the country it simply isn't an easy battle. You just hope that we as hobbyist in this club realize that we have a duty to pass the information along to the future. If we fail to do so then there will eventually not be a hobby.
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yup I agree with your statement. it's just like saying not all people are bad people. but you can't certainly expect everyone you meet in your lifetime going to be good people
I disagree with your statement. I have family in Cambodia still, very poor & uneducated, and they are what I consider ignorant. Not stupid, but ignorant to the fact how their actions affect their environment and sustainability. There are many creatures in Cambodia and SE Asia that they almost eliminated to extinction because they are uneducated. Simple example would be that Rhino Tusk will cure cancer and all your diseases, make you stronger, etc. etc. That's just simple ignorance to what medical science has proven, but they don't know that because they been told this in numerous occasions. Another example would be this type of animal (can't remember the name) but it looks like an armadillo. Cambodians would catch them, cut their throats to drink their blood, thinking it gives them strength. You can call that stupid, but its actually ignorance because they were never taught otherwise.
You are using the term "stupid" to be consistent with the term "ignorant". Also, poor people tend to be less educated, hence more ignorant to subjects like this. Again, not stupid, just ignorant.
Heck, you don't even have to go that far, one of my sisters here in GA. She's a fisherman, she gets pissed about legal limits regarding quantity and size. She thinks the laws are stupid, because she is ignorant to why the laws are in place. I had to sit down and explain to her regarding how if everyone over harvested how there won't be any for next season or the fact that if they keep the small ones (that taste better according to her) there won't be any adults to reproduce. This thought process isn't limited to her, a lot of small time fisherman thinks this way.
Regarding getting them nets and learning how to use them and being more effective method of capturing these fish, that may be true. But this fisherman already knows this method, and its a tried and true method to him. To him (probably) that learning curve isn't worth it as during that time, he's losing out on potential pennies to feed his family. Yes! Pennies. So, to him, he doesn't care, because the most important thing to him is living day by day to feed his family.
Again, it goes back to money. He's getting paid to do it, he will continue to do it. Continue to do it the way he knows how. Just that simple.
You are using the term "stupid" to be consistent with the term "ignorant". Also, poor people tend to be less educated, hence more ignorant to subjects like this. Again, not stupid, just ignorant.
Heck, you don't even have to go that far, one of my sisters here in GA. She's a fisherman, she gets pissed about legal limits regarding quantity and size. She thinks the laws are stupid, because she is ignorant to why the laws are in place. I had to sit down and explain to her regarding how if everyone over harvested how there won't be any for next season or the fact that if they keep the small ones (that taste better according to her) there won't be any adults to reproduce. This thought process isn't limited to her, a lot of small time fisherman thinks this way.
Regarding getting them nets and learning how to use them and being more effective method of capturing these fish, that may be true. But this fisherman already knows this method, and its a tried and true method to him. To him (probably) that learning curve isn't worth it as during that time, he's losing out on potential pennies to feed his family. Yes! Pennies. So, to him, he doesn't care, because the most important thing to him is living day by day to feed his family.
Again, it goes back to money. He's getting paid to do it, he will continue to do it. Continue to do it the way he knows how. Just that simple.
That's great insight, Victor. Thank you for sharing that. We've seen the same thing working in Honduras and Nicaragua: when you're literally living day-to-day, long-term concerns are something you often can't afford. If it means pennies extra today, you have to do it. It's literally a matter of life or death.
As you've found, Jenn, changing a culture is extraordinarily difficult. Where we work in Honduras, it literally took an entire generation</em> to reach a tipping point just on families using clean water. I'm not sure there's a bigger no-brainer to us than not drinking contaminated water, but it has been a stunning uphill struggle to sell that message to the very poor.
As you've found, Jenn, changing a culture is extraordinarily difficult. Where we work in Honduras, it literally took an entire generation</em> to reach a tipping point just on families using clean water. I'm not sure there's a bigger no-brainer to us than not drinking contaminated water, but it has been a stunning uphill struggle to sell that message to the very poor.
I expect that most everyone in the hobby has at least some fish that were caught using these practices, whether it was known how the fish were collected or not. If Hawaii collection is at least safe, while maybe not sustainable, where else are collection practices reasonably safe for fish and coral? Is there a site that has decent guides on what species are safely collected and lists of reef lfs that use good methods to aquire them?
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