Starter Fish

[linda lee]

Okay, now I'm confused. What's <span style="color: darkred;"><u>fact</u></span> and what's <span style="color: darkred;"><u>opinion</u></span>?

We've set up a 33 gal *learner tank* and were ready to add *learner fish*.

We were told by LFS#1 Guy that something hardy and inexpensive (like damsels or saltwater mollies) would be a good choice.

So... when the tank was ready, we added a trio of damsels from LFS#2 (LFS#1 is moving to a new location and is not replenishing stock until after their move -- had mollies, but found those boring; had no damsels).

Dammies seem fine and are fun to watch. (What can I say? We're newbies ~ ~ anything at all with color and movement and we're easily impressed.)

Today I went to LFS#3 (one of the ARC sponsors) to get additional live rock. Heard they have great LR. (I think they do, by the way, but remember my newbie status.)

I made a promise to myself before going in with my 13 yr old: "no fish impulse buys."

Naturally, he saw a fish he liked.

Naturally, I said no and added (within earshot of LFS#3 Guy) that the starter fish needed to hang out for awhile to make sure everything was fine.

LFS#3 Guy, while helping me select LR, asked what kind of fish we'd put in... I told him and he said I'd need to remove the damsels before adding any quality fish. He said they'd pester and eventually kill any fish I add from here on out, even much larger fish.

He also said "that's why we don't even sell damsels here."

So....... (as I looked over his shoulder at the tank my son and I had been viewing earlier with it's yellowtail damsels and jewel damsels), I mentioned that we were told at LFS#1 if we decided on damsels as starter fish, we'd be pretty much stuck with them as they'd be nearly impossible to catch. In response, LFS#3 Guy said I'd have to remove most of the rock to capture them........

Ummm... Now I <u>know</u> they're not at all rare or special and that they're pretty cheap fish, but I don't want to flush anything and I certainly don't want to disassemble my rock placement to capture them.

What's the deal?

Can they stay?

Must they go?

Opinions?

Facts???

 

[vettesarebest]

They <u>WILL </u>become agressive eventually. It may be a while or it may be soon. What kind are they? I had a Yellow Fin Damsel for three years and had no problems until about a month ago where he decided to attack my hand and other fish. Not only will they attack larger fish but also humans. I personally will NEVER buy another damsel again. I had him for three years as originally a "tester" fish and this is what he became. It is up to you, ask yourself "Do I want anything besides damsels"? You will eventually want something besides them. There are lots of "Beginner" fish out there other than damsels.

~ Chromis - Related to damsels but not as agressive. Best in groups.
~ Gobies - Stay small and are easily kept.
~ Percula Clownfish - Pretty,small, active, cheap, easy to keep.
~ Fire Fish - Pretty, Small, Easy to keep, Best in groups.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

LOL.... First off, let me welcome you and your son to the hobby....May it bring you many nights of wonder and amazement!

Ok now to your questions.... You just figured out the one hard fact of reefkeeping: "If you ask 10 LFS a questions, you will get 20 different answers!" You better believe it is true! That is why you never impulse buy. You need to be able to research any purchase that you are going to make on your own and come up with your own conclusions..

Ok now for some straight answers:

There is nothing called a saltwater molly... There are fresh water mollied (more brakish then anything else) that can SURVIVE in saltwater. Back in the olden days (almost befor my 10 years in the hobby) it was pretty common to use mollies as started fish to create some fish waste in the water and start the nitrogen cycle. It was a bad practice and I am glad it is gone. I have not heard of many people doing that any more since it is a waste of a fishs life.

Much on that same note is why people were using damsels. They were "Harder to kill" then a normal fish so it was thought that they could live trough a full on cycle of a tank. Again cruel to the fish.

I hate to disagree with Bryan but I do not think that damsels are the devil and WILL become agressive. Just like many other fish, they set up a territory and if they have been living in there for a month or so and you try to add another fish in there, he is going to protect his territory! If you want him to stay, your best bet is going to be to rearrange your rock right before you put any other fish in the tank, it messes with the fish so they do not know what their territory is.

FYI: I do not know if your tank is "cycled" yet but be carefule adding too much live rock if it is.. you could restart the cycle.

My advice is to read a few books about reefkeeping and not trust your LFS too much. I hate to say it, they are there to make money and some will do anything to do that. Even if their advice is not geared toward making you money, I think we can all agree there are some idiot LFS employees out there and you would be better off researching the answer to your own questions... Try a book like: http://www.amazon.com/Conscientious-Marine-Aquarist-Commonsense-Successful/dp/1890087025/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7067887-7203227?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182896331&sr=8-2">http://www.amazon.com/Conscientious-Marine-Aquarist-Commonsense-Successful/dp/1890087025/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7067887-7203227?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182896331&sr=8-2</a> to get your feet wet..

Again, good luck to you and your son!!!

 

[vettesarebest]

Alot of them will lie to you just to sell you things. Do the research and then make a purchase.

 

[tanner86]

When it comes to damsels, most people would probably agree that they're pests. Damsels become highly agressive with age. As for a damsel killing another fish, I don't think so. Although, as damsels age, like any fish, they very well might turn on each other. In order to get them out of an aquarium there have been many attempts with multiple techniques. People use nets and sometimes stand at the aquarium for hours. You must be quick! Others use food and when the damsels come to the top, net them. For me, I made this same fatal mistake of adding damsels. I had to take out all my rockwork and fish them out. Even then it was a chore. I would suggest drain all your water with a siphon hose into a bucket, let the damsels flop on the sand and scoop them up. Put them in a plastic container with some aquarium water and flush them or take them back to the LFS. Fill you aquarium back up with water and there you go! If you leave and inch or two of water in that aquarium during removal you won't catch them with the LR. Drain all water! They will be fine flopping around for a second. Damsels are like coch roaches, they can live through a nuclear holocast.
Having said that, many other people like damsels. If you enjoy them, keep them. But, if you add a fish that is not a damsel and then decide to get the damsels out, good luck! It will be impossible without stressing your new fish you want to keep.

 

[jetchris]

ask your questions on here rather than LFS's. "Like you are doing now." Yes the damsels will have to go after your tank cycles. Take out all your LR and catch them , bring them back to the LFS and get store credit. I reccommend a diamond goby to keep your sand clean, clowns, 6 line wrasse, maybe a pygmy angel fish. No tangs your tank is to small.

 

[vettesarebest]

What I did to get rid of my Yellow fin looser was Just put food at the top and grabbed him with my hand. Worked very nicely. However because you just got the fish they will most likely not trust you as much as mine did and eat out of your hand. Don't flush the poor fella, not his fault.

 

[glxtrix]

Xyzpdq0121;51013 wrote: I have not heard of many people doing that any more since it is a waste of a fishs life.

I had some mollies in my tank for quite sometime, they are a great/cheap addition to rid of neusance algea like green hair algea....and mine actually bred in my tank, had 5 or so lil guys swimming around till a PH took care of them

 

[showtime305]

I do agree with Brandon that they are territorial. Damsel are not the best first fish choice. If anything they should be one of the last to be added if you choose to keep one.

 

[kelly3341]

I have two blue damsels with yellow tails. They were one of the last additions to my tank, and were an "impulse buy". They are perfect citizens as of today. They probably did not have a chance to become the big fish of the tank as they were added after a lot of other fish.

The funny thing about them is that I have anthis, a purple tang, and a flame angel that I am most proud of, but when new folks come by a gaze, the first thing they comment on is the damsels!

 

[FutureInterest]

kelly3341;51054 wrote:
The funny thing about them is that I have anthis, a purple tang, and a flame angel that I am most proud of, but when new folks come by a gaze, the first thing they comment on is the damsels!

lol. Its amazing what some people find most interesting about reefs... I had some friends come over who completely ignored all the corals and expensive fish... instead they were infatuated with my hermit crabs... Wierdos.

 

[cameron]

Depends greatly on the species honestly. Blue yellow tail damsels are generally the safest of the damsels. Honestly it isn't the damsels it is what you want to keep with them. In such a small tank, you are going to need relatively aggressive fish or at least ones with some attitude. Clowns come to mind as they are actually closely related to the damsel and don't take crap from practically anything (mine actually attacks my hand but no other fish). My flame angel can hold his own. Grammas and hawkfish generally won't put up with bullying either.

I put a damsel in my tank (yellow tail) and was concerned as people tried scaring me away from him. After watching practically every fish chase him around the tank, I quickly came to the conclusion that not all damsels are created equal.

If you do decide to get rid of them, I suggest a fish trap. It is very easy to use and doesn't mess up the tank. I own a small one you can borrow or you can rent one from Fishy Business.

 

[linda lee]

Xyzpdq0121;51013 wrote: LOL.... First off, let me welcome you and your son to the hobby....May it bring you many nights of wonder and amazement!

My advice is to read a few books about reefkeeping and not trust your LFS too much.... Try a book like: http://www.amazon.com/Conscientious-Marine-Aquarist-Commonsense-Successful/dp/1890087025/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7067887-7203227?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182896331&sr=8-2">http://www.amazon.com/Conscientious-Marine-Aquarist-Commonsense-Successful/dp/1890087025/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-7067887-7203227?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182896331&sr=8-2</a> <span style="font-family: Courier New;">(</span><span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: Courier New;">The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists)</span> </span>to get your feet wet..

Again, good luck to you and your son!!![/QUOTE]

----------
Thanks for the welcome and thanks also for your always very informative posts!

The book you mention is actually the first we bought and we read it avidly like a Bible. Here are excerpts of what Fenner says on Pages 269-272:

<span style="color: darkred;">[B]"Damselfishes -- The Quintessential Beginner's Fishes and Much More[/B]</span>

<span style="color: darkred;">[B](p. 269) Damselfishes provide a vital link both as reef-feeding and feeder fishes and are excellent beginner marine aquarium specimens. Their popularity is well-warranted, considering their diversity, beauty, tolerance of chemical and physical conditions, gregariousness when crowded, and [I]<u>general compatibility with fishes and invertebrates</u></em>......[/B]</span>

<span style="color: darkred;">[B]Summary (p. 272): The damsels are an inexpensive mainstay in our aquariums, active guardians, and aqua-popcorn on the world's reefs. The greatest testimony to their toughness is that they do "damselfish duty" in "popping" new systems--establishing bio- geo- chemical cycling while giving the untrained aquarist his or her first taste of keeping marine fishes. Miraculously, most damsels manage to live through it all and go on to live for many years."[/B]</span>

I have 3 damsels (2 yellowtails and 1 domino) and think I'll just let them hang out for awhile and see what happens. Maybe we won't even add more fish to this tank until we have our second tank established as a back-up.

Thanks to everyone who posted!!!! We're learning so much every day!!

~Linda

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Linda,

I am glad you already have the book. Do you already have the Fenner website?!? http://www.wetwebmedia.com">www.wetwebmedia.com</a>

If there is one thing that is true about this hobby it is that there is always more to learn and 50,000 ways to solve the same problem.

Many of us are always here to help and answer questions. Most of our doors are always open for you to stop by and "talk tanks". We might not always get along on the forums but we really are one big happy family.

 

[seedless reefer]

Can we buy something new???? Can we? Can we?? Can we???


<span style="font-size: 14px;"><span style="color: blue;">Loren W.</span></span>

 

[linda lee]

I'll tell ya what I told the 13 year old......

No, no, no and absolutely NOT.......

(well, maybe...........)

:fish: :fish: :fish:
:fish: :fish:
:fish:

 

[ms_ k]

If you want my advice, keep the damsels. They can be very fun, pretty fish to watch. Evenutually, after you're comfortable with saltwater and have continued your research, you'll want a bigger tank anyway. If you have the funds and find a good deal, set up another tank with non-damsel fishes. That will give you time to gain more experience with water quality as well as time to research the many species of fish available before stocking the tank.