Starting over... =(

[mantis]

So I have a 75 gallon tank that I had stocked with quite a few very nice specimens...lionfish, eel, puffers, tangs, grouper...it was a great group that all got along very well. I had it up and running for almost 2 years without any issues...did a 25% WC every 2 weeks...constantly checked levels...

I went on vacation for 3 days in May...my dad was taking care of everything at my house and feeding everything as he had many times before...the day I was coming home he calls me and says all my fish are dead and floating at the bottom of the tank...I thought he must have been mistaken, but sure enough I got home and all but my grouper and my wolf eel were dead (and those 2 were on the brink of dead, breathing very quickly, lying on their sides)...I acted as fast as I could and set up a mock quarantine situation just to get them out of that water...thankfully I saved them and migrated them to another tank...they are still alive and well today...

I then turned back to the 75 gallon completely perplexed...I checked every level of contaminant, nitrates, nitrites, phosphates I could think of...everything was normal...no spiking of anything...I took the water to my LFS and they checked it...nothing wrong...they had no idea why all my fish that had been alive and well the night before were all dead (and looked to have been dead for quite awhile by the ooze/goo on them) seemingly out of nowhere...

So first, has anyone experienced something so random? Any idea what it might be? I'd love to learn from this, b/c it makes me very hesitant to restart my tank and invest so much into the fish again (I lost around $800 worth) when I have no idea what I did wrong...

Secondly...when I do restart...what is the best way to go about it? I have around 80lb of live rock in the tank...it is around 1/3 full of water now as I've pretty much just let it sit since May...I'm still debating on what to do b/c if there IS some strange toxin in the water I don't want to chance restarting it if it's all over the live rock/substrate...should I 'cleanse' the rock somehow? Trash the substrate and start over?

Any advice is greatly appreciated...I'm so tentative to restart that whole process again when it was all taken away from me so violently and suddenly...

David

 

[acroholic]

Hard to diagnose what the issue was, but the first thing that jumped out at me about your setup was a 75 gallon tank with "lionfish, eel, puffers, tangs, grouper". Every fish you listed is incompatible with that small a tank. But all of them together in a 75? That is a disaster waiting to happen, IMO. Probably the reason for the crash.

If/when you restock, go with smaller species, keep stocking levels to a minimum, and stay away from any fish on that list you posted. Not trying to bust your chops, but you need a much larger tank for those type fish.

 

[mantis]

I had a feeling that might be part of the problem...but I'd still like to know the 'why' of it being a problem...

Like I said, all my levels were stable, and had been for over a year with that same livestock...none fought each other...it was almost as though all the predators kept each other at bay...

Can you explain why the mix of species would have caused such a sudden crash?

 

[crew]

My guess would be a pH swing in the middle of the night.. it would be undetectable by morning.

 

[acroholic]

Lionfish can get a foot or better, Puffers can get a foot or more, groupers can get several feet long, tangs can get huge and need lots of swimming space, wolf eels can get 6-7 feet long. Keeping those fish in a 75 gallon ultimately is like putting 10 pounds of something in a 1 pound bag.

Also, you said your lionfish and your puffer were dead. Outside of the wrong fish for too small a tank, the puffer could have died and released a toxin into the water, killing the others. Your lion could have spiked the puffer, killing it and then the puffer toxins killed the others.

And, if you had 3-4 decent sized fish decaying in a 75 gallon tank, you had an ammonia spike whether you tested for it or not.

 

[smallblock]

did your dad do anything around the house while you were gone? Did he spray any pesticides around. How did he feed? would he actually put his hand into the tank? He may have sprayed something or had something on his hands?

 

[acroholic]

Crew;685553 wrote: My guess would be a pH swing in the middle of the night.. it would be undetectable by morning.

Maybe, a pH swing from an overcrowded tank.

 

[smallblock]

Crew;685553 wrote: My guess would be a pH swing in the middle of the night.. it would be undetectable by morning.

Nah I doubt that. It would have had to be a super swing and if it swung that much it would still be way off by the morning.

 

[crew]

Not usually, ph can swing pretty significantly, very quickly. It could have dipped and then by the time he got home 48 hours later, there would be no evidence

 

[smallblock]

Crew;685572 wrote: Not usually, ph can swing pretty significantly, very quickly. It could have dipped and then by the time he got home 48 hours later, there would be no evidence

What would be the cause of the swing? Why would it be able to come back up without anything changing?

 

[smallblock]

If you really want to start over, take all the live rock out of the tank. Soak it in diluted bleach for a day or 2. Rinse the rock with fresh water. Then set the rock outside for a couple of weeks. It should turn mostly white. Drain the tank and scoop out all the sand. You can either bleach the sand too, rinse and let it dry for a couple of weeks or buy new sand. Clean the tank really good with bleach, rinse it really well and let it dry for a few days. After the rock has been in the sun for a couple of weeks set everything back up and cycle the tank. After the cycle is complete around a month at least. Add something cheap like some hermit crabs and snails. Monitor them for a couple of weeks and if they make it your should be good. Also get some quality test kits so you can monitor your own water. Do not rely on your LFS to monitor your water. LFS should be used as a second opinion to your own results. Also invest in an RODI unit for the cleanest water possible.

Did your dad top off your tank with fresh water? He didn't use tap water did he? Tap water is ok as long as its declorinated but most of us dont use it because of all the tds it has. TDS leads to algae out breaks. Let us know a little bit more about your setup so we can try to help you figure this out. Don't worry about us getting on to you about having all those fish in the previous tank. You made a mistake and as long as you man up about it we won't look down on you. We are here to help but we will be honest about our conclusions. Ask any questions you want here there is always someone that can provide the right answers.

 

[umbrellacorp]

Smallblock;685558 wrote: did your dad do anything around the house while you were gone? Did he spray any pesticides around. How did he feed? would he actually put his hand into the tank? He may have sprayed something or had something on his hands?

have to agree here.. had to be some kind of external contaminant for everything to die at once.. thats just odd.

 

[michael grady]

Could there have been a temperature spike for some reason?

 

[mantis]

That's the problem...nothing out of the ordinary happen...he always fed the same way...I have a 10 gallon next to the 75 to hold all my silversides that I fed everyone and he knew the process of using the nets to get them and just dropping them into the 75...believe me, I grilled him incessantly to find out if he'd done anything out of the ordinary.

The statement of poison in the water was my other thought...but I researched it and couldn't find any valid reasoning...I thought the lionfish might have excreted some sort of poison when he died, but it would have been the puffer (porcupine) that would excrete that and harm the other fish if he died?

As for the sizes...the lion was by far the biggest...and he was only 8" nose to tail...wolf eel is probably 1', but thin, tang was 4", puffer was 4-5", a black hawaiian trigger was 5", spotted grouper is abt 5-6"...so nothing was abnormally huge and it seemed like everyone had plenty of room to swim without 'bumping into each other'...

It wasn't even 48 hours per someone else's comment...my father fed them on saturday night...they were fine then and all ate normally...I arrived sunday afternoon around 4...so it was more like 20 hours that they somehow had something happen, all died, and started decomposing enough to spike the tank (or were affected by a poison/toxin from puffer or lion) and yet all the levels returned to normal immediately...temperature was the constant I always kept it as well...no power outages or anything either...

 

[misu]

can you plug everything back in and check for electrical leaks?

Happened to me twice this year, left town for 3 days lost something in my tank.

 

[enderg60]

Client of mine had a similar thing happen to them, woke up in the morning and everything was fine. At lunch all but two fish were dead. Everything tested out fine and the only answer I could come up with was that the maid was there when it happened and must have gotten some kind of cleaning agent into the water.

I did two 100% water changes and left it fishless for a month, restocked it and its running fine again.

 

[mantis]

EnderG60;685626 wrote: Client of mine had a similar thing happen to them, woke up in the morning and everything was fine. At lunch all but two fish were dead. Everything tested out fine and the only answer I could come up with was that the maid was there when it happened and must have gotten some kind of cleaning agent into the water.

I did two 100% water changes and left it fishless for a month, restocked it and its running fine again.

Well, as I mentioned, I only have around 1/3 of the water left...so the LR that is sitting out of the water is presumably 'dead' where its dried out...is it worth trying to save the water and remaining rock so I don't have to completely re-cycle? Or should I just scrap that idea, bleach it all, get new substrate and just start clean?

 

[lilrobb]

How about dissolved oxygen?
Any chance the skimmer went off/stopped?

 

[mantis]

Smallblock;685583 wrote: If you really want to start over, take all the live rock out of the tank. Soak it in diluted bleach for a day or 2. Rinse the rock with fresh water. Then set the rock outside for a couple of weeks. It should turn mostly white. Drain the tank and scoop out all the sand. You can either bleach the sand too, rinse and let it dry for a couple of weeks or buy new sand. Clean the tank really good with bleach, rinse it really well and let it dry for a few days. After the rock has been in the sun for a couple of weeks set everything back up and cycle the tank. After the cycle is complete around a month at least. Add something cheap like some hermit crabs and snails. Monitor them for a couple of weeks and if they make it your should be good. Also get some quality test kits so you can monitor your own water. Do not rely on your LFS to monitor your water. LFS should be used as a second opinion to your own results. Also invest in an RODI unit for the cleanest water possible.

Did your dad top off your tank with fresh water? He didn't use tap water did he? Tap water is ok as long as its declorinated but most of us dont use it because of all the tds it has. TDS leads to algae out breaks. Let us know a little bit more about your setup so we can try to help you figure this out. Don't worry about us getting on to you about having all those fish in the previous tank. You made a mistake and as long as you man up about it we won't look down on you. We are here to help but we will be honest about our conclusions. Ask any questions you want here there is always someone that can provide the right answers.

I'll go ahead and start this bleaching process now...b/c it looks like it'll take awhile...

...for reference I have a full saltwater test kit that guages nitrites/nitrates/phosphorous/alkalinity/pH and 2 means of salinity checks...I only took the water to my LFS as a backup when I couldn't find anything via my normal checking means. I know I don't have nearly as much experience/knowledge as most of you on this forum, but I'm not a complete noob...just perhaps a bit overzealous with my desire for fish that interest me

As for my dad topping off the tank...I don't think he did...but he knows to use the gallons I sit to the side of dechlorinated water if he does so.

My exact setup I can post later tonight when I take a look at exact brands and such...but its a 75g non-drilled (has overflow) with an undertank centrifuge system with a chamber for sand/plants and a bioball area before being pumped back up...I also have a large hang-on protein skimmer running full time...1 large LR thats around 25 lbs then around 12-15 addtional 3-5lb pieces...1-2" of live sand...2 koralia powerheads...lighting...heater (keep at around 77-78 degrees)...salinity is kept around 1.023-1.025 depending on whether I've topped off recently.

Thank you all for the thoughts and advice already...it's great to have such a wealth of knowledge available...

 

[acroholic]

Mantis;685639 wrote: I'll go ahead and start this bleaching process now...b/c it looks like it'll take awhile...

...for reference I have a full saltwater test kit that guages nitrites/nitrates/phosphorous/alkalinity/pH and 2 means of salinity checks...I only took the water to my LFS as a backup when I couldn't find anything via my normal checking means. I know I don't have nearly as much experience/knowledge as most of you on this forum, but I'm not a complete noob...just perhaps a bit overzealous with my desire for fish that interest me

As for my dad topping off the tank...I don't think he did...but he knows to use the gallons I sit to the side of dechlorinated water if he does so.

My exact setup I can post later tonight when I take a look at exact brands and such...but its a 75g non-drilled (has overflow) with an undertank centrifuge system with a chamber for sand/plants and a bioball area before being pumped back up...I also have a large hang-on protein skimmer running full time...1 large LR thats around 25 lbs then around 12-15 addtional 3-5lb pieces...1-2" of live sand...2 koralia powerheads...lighting...heater (keep at around 77-78 degrees)...salinity is kept around 1.023-1.025 depending on whether I've topped off recently.

Thank you all for the thoughts and advice already...it's great to have such a wealth of knowledge available...

As with all the advice you are getting on this thread, it could be any or none of the above. Just as easily as it could be something in the air, it could also be that your growing fish simply overcame the filtering ability of your wet dry and your fish died from an ammonia spike.

Your live silversides could also be the culprit. Any live food can carry living or chemical agents that could have killed your fish.

One thing to be aware of when stocking these larger fish is that fish's body mass. Your lion might have been 8" in length, and these are just guesses to illustrate my point, but he probably has the body mass equal to 10 fully grown percula clownfish, for example. A 5" trigger probably the same as 8 perculas, etc. And all this body mass is producing waste.

So while you may have 20" in total fish length, in reality you have the equivalent of a much higher fish population regarding waste production.