Sump return question? Maybe suggestions?

[irahmatulla]

Ok, this may be a silly question. I just received my first drilled tank. First problem solved....it holds water. Quick recap, I am used to using HOB filters and PH's for flow. I know that I will need to increase flow some with the larger tank. However, I am always on a budget (which one of us isn't) and I am worried about return flow. I know if I skimp on the return pump I will more than likely have to purchase at least one new power head. If I use an overrated return pump I can maybe direct the flow and save on a new "head." I have considered just trying to cap the bulkheads and start small and progress as I can afford it. However, I would like to go ahead and at least get the sump plumbed so I do not have to worry about it. It has caused me great anxiety and I am usually at peace with my fish/finance dilemma. Has anyone ever found a return pump not listed as just that, that works? I used to work in the Custom Tile business, and was thinking a water pump from a wet saw? Or maybe a small pump that can be fastened inline with the pvc that will just cause a vortex strong enough to keep a small flow? I know, if I am going to do something, I should do it right. I am just excited to start transferring stuff into the new tank, and want to use the added volume of a sump without having to sink too far into my pocket to do it. Or possibly does someone have a used pump they would be willing to part with for cheap?

 

[smallblock]

The reason you want to go with a aquarium pump is because if they fail they do not release oil into the system which is catastophic. For instance a mag pump is sealed the only way to access it is to remove the volute and remove the magnetic impellar. No access to the inside at all. Also you won't really get alot of flow out of your return pump. If you have too much flow from your return pump your overflow will not be able to keep up. It will simply add to much water to the display and the drain cannot keep up. understand?

Edit: Its a fine line of balance between how much water is being pumped into the display from the sump to the amount the drain can drain.

 

[irahmatulla]

Hence a ball valve on the output to the sump? I was probably going to put a check valve (hopefully I used the right word) to be able to manually cut off the flow in and out of the tank so I can tweek it just right, and in case of any issues I can control gravity. Would a submersible pond pump work? Would there be issues with oil leakage problems?

 

[smallblock]

I would look into the pondmaster mag pumps, you dont really want to have a ball valve on the drain side, you want to put a ball valve on the return side. This means you would have your pump plumbed in and a ball valve shortly after the pump. you turn the flow down on the pump to achieve the balance. The thing with putting a ball valve on the drain side is if you have it slightly turned and a snail gets into it and cloggs the drain what will happen is the pump will continue to pump and it wont be able to drain and then your display will overflow and you have a mess.

 

[rsuddath3]

Smallblock;689150 wrote: I would look into the pondmaster mag pumps, you dont really want to have a ball valve on the drain side, you want to put a ball valve on the return side. This means you would have your pump plumbed in and a ball valve shortly after the pump. you turn the flow down on the pump to achieve the balance. The thing with putting a ball valve on the drain side is if you have it slightly turned and a snail gets into it and cloggs the drain what will happen is the pump will continue to pump and it wont be able to drain and then your display will overflow and you have a mess.

+1

Pond pump, aquarium pump, same thing ==> Mag drive pump. Mine has a threaded outlet that I just screwed a ball valve on to. There's no need to limit the drain flow. The drain can't drain faster than the return pump pumps. :yes: But the return can possibly pump faster than the drain can drain. They should be sized similarly. It's generally recommended to not use your return for flow. If you keep an eye out on here, you should be able to snag a return pump and a powerhead for relatively cheap. I think I got a Mag 5 for $40 and a K4 for $35. Or something like that.

 

[irahmatulla]

I found a cheap 200gph return at Harbor Freight, for the price I am picking up two just in case something happens to the first. What I meant about the valve was a "check valve" (?) its kind of just a lever that will stop flow completely on the drain side, so that if for some odd reason I should have fail I can stop the drain (may be overkill) but just to be able to close the circuit for sump work. I have not gone and priced out all of my pieces, but apparently my bulkhead for the return is the only thing leaking. (salvage tank) and so I will more than likely just silicone it back on, since the threads on the bottom are stuck on something fierce. You say I should not rely on my return for flow, I know when it comes to power heads, I want a 10x gph circulation right? so in a 60g roughly 600 gph worth of circulation....how many gph should my pump be rated? If I got a pump, and turned the ball valve down, wouldn't that overwork the motor, hence causing sooner pump failure? I was thinking too, if I am buying two, I could just put them side by side in my return partition, and just use a T fitting to push into the return line?

 

[rsuddath3]

200 gph at what height? I run a single mag 5 on my 65. The height the water must be pushed affects the flow rate. Using a ball valve to resist the flow does the same thing.

A check valve is designed to allow flow in only one direction. They're often installed on airlines to prevent back siphoning into the air pump. A valve that uses a lever is likely a ball valve, a 90 degree turn completely stops flow. You want your system set up such that if the pump fails, like in a power outage, the amount of water that will still drain into the sump will not overflow it.

As for connecting the pumps with a T, you are correct in assuming the flow would be increased. Not necessarily doubled, but pretty close to it I would imagine. Running 2 pumps would likely introduce more heat into the system, something that may not be an issue with winter approaching, but may be undesirable in the long run.

If you are referring to the $10 200 GPH Miniature Submersible Fountain Pump, the product specs say the <u>MAX</u> flow rate is 200 gph and the <u>MAX</u> head lift is 4.6 ft. In this context, I would take this to mean that the flow rate at a height of 0 ft would be 200 gph and the flow at a height of 4.6 ft would be 0 gph. The manufacturers documents do not include a pump curve which would allow you to determine the flow rate at an intermediate height. But from the information available, I'd say these are a waste of your money. You need to measure the distance from the top of your display to the top of the water level in your return section. This will serve as an approximation of your required head. In actuality, the required head will be slightly higher because of pipe friction. So slightly oversizing and using a ball valve to tweak your system is the best and easiest way.

Like I said, be patient and watch the for sale threads. A Mag 5 will certainly pop up.

As for 10X circulation, I have asked this question before and received the answer of "it depends." 10 is good, but depending on what you want to keep, I believe some people go as high as 30. For sump flow, I think 5X is acceptable, but I'm sure there are better sources for this info than myself.

Edit: Just noticed that you're in Savannah so the for sale threads might not be as useful as I imagined.

 

[irahmatulla]

As they may not be AS useful, they are still useful. I know a member coming down here for a week very soon, he is bringing me frags from another member, and also potential vacation will be in order. When you say sump flow, do you mean 5x he flow of the sump gallon size or the DT size? Also, I do understand that the specs on that Harbor Freight pump are prolly crappy, but as it stands right now, I am going to be using more of a simple refugium as the tank is drilled and I would rather not have to keep my water level lower than the overflow. I have considered trying to get a pvc cap for the bulk head, and then position a HOB filter to draw water out of the overflow...at least until I can purchase a decent pump. Would that be suggestable? I opted to do this instead of upgrading to my 90g....and am quickly realizing, with tank purchase all is going to cost me close to the same amount . Either way the tank size and shape is incredible and the price was too great to pass up. I appreciate all the knowledge and care from a stranger. That is why I joined this group, because without you guy's....I would be left to only my LFS's suggestions. (suggestive sales) My local reef store is not as helpful and knowlegable as the ones up there. (from what I have seen thus far) If you ever come to Savannah look me up!

 

[rsuddath3]

5X display volume. And like I said, there are better sources than myself for that info. But I fear those pumps won't just be insufficient; they may not function at all. Do you know your approximate head height? And I don't exactly understand your HOB idea.

 

[irahmatulla]

My head Height will be roughly 3.5 ft. I understand and have decided against those pumps, I will run sumpless for a few weeks untill I can afford a quality pump. The overflow which is in the corner of the tank will be capped at the bottom, allowing the overflow to fill, but not release into a sump tank. and instead of letting that water get stagnant I will position a HOB to where the intake tube goes down into the overflow and draw water out. Essentially cycling the water out of the overflow, and hiding the tube. So I do not have to worry about falling rocks when I move them out, after the sump is fucntional. However, I ran into the problem today, that I did not know that the threads on the outside of the bulk heads, are apparently not standard. So 1'' and 1.5'' were too big, and 3/4'' and 1.25'' was too small. So now i have to plumb the flanges and cap off the inbound/outbound pipes. My girlfriend thought the science was a lot, let alone from the engineering. I knew I shoulda stayed in college.

 

[rsuddath3]

If you've got an airstone, you could just use it to prevent stagnation.

 

[irahmatulla]

also a good idea! Thats why I love having you guys on my side!

 

[rdnelson]

Hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here but I have a couple of related questions.

1. I understand about not wanting a ball valve in the drain line because a snail or something could get stuck in a partially closed valve. But, if the valve were completely open do you think there would be enough restriction to cause a potential blockage? I know that leaves it up to the user to ensure it is always fully open but???

2. I have a spare pond pump from when I up graded the one on my pond. Was thinking of using it but was cocerned about krud that might have built up in it. My thoughts were to run it in a bucket of water and bleach for about 24 hours, then another 24 hours in just tap water and finally another 24 hours in RO/DI water. Think that would do the trick?

 

[rsuddath3]

I don't have a ball valve on my drain because it seems pointless. I do have a threaded union so I can disconnect the overflow from the rest of the system. The water level in your sump should never be so high that when the return is cut off, it overflows. And you wouldn't want to run your return with your drain cut off cause the display would overflow. So if you want to work on the plumbing or something, you just cut off the return pump and wait til the water level has dropped enough that the display has stopped draining.

I'd take the impeller out of the pond pump and give the insides a good scrubbing. Probably has 4 screws holding the cover on. Just make sure you rinse is well. I don't think you need 24 hr cycles. If it had mineral build up, it'd be different, but you'd use vinegar or CLR.

 

[rdnelson]

RSUDDATH3;689536 wrote: I don't have a ball valve on my drain because it seems pointless. I do have a threaded union so I can disconnect the overflow from the rest of the system. The water level in your sump should never be so high that when the return is cut off, it overflows. And you wouldn't want to run your return with your drain cut off cause the display would overflow. So if you want to work on the plumbing or something, you just cut off the return pump and wait til the water level has dropped enough that the display has stopped draining.

I'd take the impeller out of the pond pump and give the insides a good scrubbing. Probably has 4 screws holding the cover on. Just make sure you rinse is well. I don't think you need 24 hr cycles. If it had mineral build up, it'd be different, but you'd use vinegar or CLR.

Thanks for the advice. I have had the pond pump apart several times and it is a snap. VIniger sounds much better. I appreciate the help.

 

[rdnelson]

Thanks Blakejohn. I appreciate you guys letting me jump in here. I will give the thread back now.

 

[irahmatulla]

Nelson, you are more than welcome. I am glad to have all the advice because your questions may benefit me one day. I learned about all I am going to with this thread so far. I am selling my 90g Wednesday to finish paying for my 60g upgrade. So, return pump questions are going to be put to use. However, I realized after all of these questions that I can not find a PVC threaded fitting to go onto the male threads on my bulkhead. I was unaware that I had to cement pvc into the the bulkhead and then plumb it that way. I found out why I got the tank so cheap, there is a broken piece of pvc inside the bulkhead. Trying to decide whether it will be better to use a dremmel to bore it out, or run a smaller piece of pipe inside of that broken piece. It is the drain side, so it should not restrict me too much.

 

[rdnelson]

IRahmatulla;689733 wrote: Nelson, you are more than welcome. I am glad to have all the advice because your questions may benefit me one day. I learned about all I am going to with this thread so far. I am selling my 90g Wednesday to finish paying for my 60g upgrade. So, return pump questions are going to be put to use. However, I realized after all of these questions that I can not find a PVC threaded fitting to go onto the male threads on my bulkhead. I was unaware that I had to cement pvc into the the bulkhead and then plumb it that way. I found out why I got the tank so cheap, there is a broken piece of pvc inside the bulkhead. Trying to decide whether it will be better to use a dremmel to bore it out, or run a smaller piece of pipe inside of that broken piece. It is the drain side, so it should not restrict me too much.

If I were you, I would buy a new bulkhead fitting. They are not much. I recently bought some for a project where I was building a bio-filter for my ponds and plumbing the two ponds together into one system. Two of the ones I bought worked fine with threaded fittings but the other had a strange thread on it that would fit nothing. Then I realized it was the type where the pipe runs through it and you glue it. Either way, they are not expensive and most LFS have them. Don't let a $15 item stop you for doing what you want.