Thinking about starting a refugium *first*

[siege]

Ok, so per my "Hi, I'm back," thread...

I'm looking to get back into the hobby, but I need to do it on the cheap for a while. So, to that end, as soon as I can I'm going to go ahead and buy myself a water filter (unless anyone is upgrading theirs and wants to sell me their old one), which is $150 I could spend on other things so will definitely limit any further major tank investments for some time. Starting with the refugium seems a good way to go, especially after the pain putting one in after the fact caused me with my last tank.

I have two sets of fluorescent lights that were on the 50gal I used to have, so while they're not ideal length-wise for a smaller tank, I have drop ceilings that I can suspend them from. I'm figuring I'll try to source a 20 to 30 gallon tank for this project, not going to worry about a proper stand for now. I assume I'll be able to get by without a sump and just a small pump or two for circulation, as I intend to grow plenty of chaeto too.

My thinking here is that I can start getting a system ready so by the time I get a real tank, I shouldn't need to do much more than make extra water. I understand mangroves aren't all that efficient at removing excess nutrients, but I think I'd like some regardless. I'm all about the inverts and corals anyway.

What I'd like is some thoughts or suggestions on going about this. I think I might like to try a setup that has a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_scrubber#Later_developments">waterfall-type algae mat scrubber</a> on one side that drains into the main body of the rest of the 'fuge, with mangroves and chaeto on the other side, along with your typical CUC offerings, maybe some shrimp and if I'm lucky a couple of seahorses: figured I'd just order some garf grunge to get my janitors and everything else in place. I had great success with their product in the past, and it looks like now they have a specialized offer just for refugiums.

So, does anyone have any thoughts, comments or advice about going this route? As above, I definitely have to do this on the cheap, but I'd really like to get back into reefing. If anyone has any spare or relevant equipment they'd like to get rid of at a reasonable price, please send me a PM. All suggestions are welcome.

Thanks!

Edit: Ack... no way to edit messages after the fact on these forums... harsh.

Anyway, just to clarify, as I think further on this, do you all think it would work to put a separate smaller (perhaps acrylic?) tank inside the main body of the 20/30gal for the algae scrubber and then just let it overflow into the rest of the fuge, with the water level being perhaps a bit lower than it would be otherwise to give the mangroves plenty of room, or maybe elevating it above the top of the waterline?

Edit:

Edit: Ok... so apparently typing a new message edits my original and just adds the edit line... Weird. Also, I just turned off my adblocker (trying to figure out why my post didn't show up) and noticed there is an image/ad of some lights in the top right corner of my post... that I definitely didn't put there.

 

[siege]

Anyone have any thoughts or comments on whether I can do this successfully without a skimmer?

 

[dakota9]

Wow!

First, I really appreciate your style of writing, it's clever and well thought out. You seem to express yourself well. (You give good forum, </em>hehe)</em>

That being said;

You state you are on a tight budget, but suggest some "not cheap" mods to a simple refugium.

Water Filter? You mean an RODI? If just starting out on a budget, buy your water for now. At 30 cents a gallon, you can fill a 30g tank for 9 bucks and then waterchanges will cost you no more than $1.50. A quality RODI can be purchased later when you can take time to scoop up a good deal.

GARF Grunge is going to net you no more than regular reef sand in the long run. This has been proven time and time again. Just pick up some reef sand locally and save a few bucks.

An algae scrubber? They work, but so does a lot of other things. Enough Macros in a refugium should be plenty for nutrient export, and the algae scrubber is going to look more like a science project than a fish tank, in my very humble opinion. Also, you'll need more light on the algae scrubber, another investment you may need to make.

For a great refugium, all you really need is;

Tank
substrate
basic lighting
saltwater
Macro Algaes

I'd add a bit of live rock to that since you won't have a display that houses it.

I think now would be the perfect time to concern yourself with a stand. It takes a while for refugiums to start doing what they are supposed to do, and breaking it down later to move it will set you back. I'd go ahead and put it on a stand that would meet your future need as you build the system around it.

Unless you're going a full blown SPS refugium, I doubt the need for a skimmer at all at this point in time. That could wait until the display and sump was added in the future.

Just my thoughts


Oh, BTW, only members have access to the full edit feature (such as I'm using now), and the ad in your post is a Google Ad, something the club started doing a year or two ago for extra revenue. And again, members are spared those annoyances, as with membership, those are hidden. I sometimes question how legitimate we look when guests see ads for snake oils like the EcoAuqalizer advertised on our site, but that's a topic for a different thread.

 

[rdnelson]

I would just add one thing to what Dakota said. If you don't want to purchase the water but put that money towards a longer term solution,

 

[siege]

Great replies, thanks! Also, I appreciate the comments! I work with others for a living (I.T.), and it doesn't hurt that I'm the only child of an English major

So, I'm about to leave work in a few minutes, and I do intend on a more comprehensive reply later, but as for a couple of points real quick:

I'm buying the RO/DI filter (was intending on a 6-stage with tank from the same place I got my last one, FilterDirect) for several reasons. I'd been meaning to get another one anyway (as we're currently spending about $5/week on a pack of bottled water, and creating a ton of waste), and a reef tank is a good add-on impetus to not only have clean water to hand for the tank, but for us to stop wasting money and making garbage. At $150, it'll only take 30 weeks to pay for itself just in bottled water alone.

And, while I am trying to keep this on a budget, it's not because I'm poor, per se. It's mainly because the wife and I have some bills that should take more priority and I have a hard time spending much more than $50 on anything I don't *really* need when there's so much I should be saving for instead... kids, car, home, insurance... retirement (though that's at least 30 years off, but still).

I know it's an expensive hobby no matter which way I slice it, but I definitely have the fever again, and that's why I need to keep it as cheap as I can so I can do as much as possible with what I have while I prepare for the future.

I'm not looking for a stand right now because I have no place to put one, seriously. Unless I want to put the tank in another room where I'll never see it except when I'm leaving or coming home, the only option I have for the time being is to put it on a big heavy steel desk I have in my living area. Frankly, that desk would probably hold a 55+ gallon tank full of rock and water and not even groan, but I have no intention of finding out. Still, I'm 100% certain it will be good enough for up to a 30gal, and until I either move into a bigger place, or we manage to clear up some space, it is what it is, and that's all I've got to work with.

Ok, so this should be longer, but it is REALLY time for me to get out of here... will write more later! Thanks again!

 

[dakota9]

Walmart, last I purchased there it was actually .29 per gallon, but that was a few years back, maybe it's changed. This was the machine where you fill your own container.

Edit: I can't pass up this opportunity to stress that I HATE Walmart, and that was QUITE LITERALLY the ONLY place to go that was near my last workplace....

 

[siege]

Ok, so to carry on:

One of the other reasons I don't want to buy water from the store is my work schedule: 11pm to 7am. I know WallyWorld is open then, and there's one near my home, but honestly the last thing I want to do when I get off work is come home, swap cars with the wife, and then drive back out into traffic to buy water. Of course, my wife can buy it when she goes grocery shopping, but that's more heavy stuff to lug downstairs on top of the scads of money we're wasting on bottled water over the course of a year. As before, simply not buying bottled water any more will pay off the $170 for the filter in about 34 weeks. The hassle saved by not having to buy bottled water for my tank either will be invaluable, especially as I don't have a good place to store it in quantity and I'm liable to do water changes at odd times and hours, like at 3am on Saturday morning when I'm even less inclined to leave the house (I'm a bit of a hermit). This is one item I can definitely justify the cost on, and have been wanting to get - outside the concerns of a fish tank - for some time, this just gives me an even better excuse to do it. I just glanced at the filter advertised here from Air, Water & Ice, and it looks as if my best deal is still going to be from http://stores.ebay.com/Filter-Direct-store/Water-Purification-Systems-/_i.html?_fsub=2&_sid=29465710&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322">FilterDirect on eBay, where they have a 100gpd 6-stage RO/DI with tank going for $170</a>: the ones at purewaterclub.com have one less stage for a little less money.

I'm curious about the Garf Grunge... I've had good success with it in the past, and their janitor packs and all the other stuff they tend to throw in for free with every order I've ever made has led me to believe it was worth my while, or at least as good as buying "live sand" from the store, with the added benefit of having more "stuff" in it. While their "refugium kit" isn't the cheapest thing in the world, it seems like it would give me a good head-start without having to go and find all that stuff individually. Until I change work schedules (I'm slated to go on to days for 4 - 8 weeks to get some extra training, then back to night-shift), even meeting other members to try to pick up sand and rock for bio-diversity would cost me just as much in time, gas and blown schedule as the cost of the order, I think. I'm not totally dead-set on this, just recounting my experience and my thoughts on the matter so far. I suppose I could just scoop some sand out of the ocean while I'm down in Savannah, but... meh? I'm willing to try it another way, but I was really not impressed with the "live sand" I bought for my last setup. I suppose I could just acquire a cup of sand or so from a couple of different ARC members with clean tanks and hope for the best, but then I still need to buy CUC somewhere.

Your point about the algae scrubber is well taken, it was just a thought, but one I'll avoid for the time being. I do really hate algae though, so I think I may save this as an idea to put in my sump itself in front of the screening material. I'll wait on actually doing it until I determine I actually need it, but I think I'll plan for it in advance when I spec out a sump-box. As for lighting it, shouldn't pretty much any light work? I seem to recall that algae doesn't care much about PAR or spectrum, as it seems to actually be encouraged by aging lights that aren't throwing the desired spectrum? When I go to plan that out if I get to a point where I feel it's needful, do I really need to plan on more reef-grade lighting, or would most any CF bulb work?

I'll definitely skip the skimmer, as I was hoping I'd be able to get by without one. I suppose that since I'm not going to be keeping any real fish in the tank (just inverts and maybe a couple of seahorses), I'm not liable to be generating enough waste to require one. (fingers crossed) Now I just have to figure out how to handle filtration or whether I can get by without it, since I'm not intending on using a sump until I get my display tank. Although... I *might* [I]eventually</em> be inclined to try putting a few SPS' in there, but only after the tank had been up and cycling for some time and was running well, by which point I should be ready to go ahead and pick one up in preparation for the main display's eventual arrival.

As for the stand, here's my quandry... I have limited space at the moment, and making space will be a difficult chore. I'm thinking that ideally, eventually the 'fuge will go under the stand or *maybe* to one side of the tank, but if I do that I won't be able to run the lights on it at night (eventually I'll have to get lights just for the 'fuge) which I understand is generally the best practice to help keep levels stable (though I bet that must mess with any 'pods that make a loop through from display tank). I'd like very much to one day get the display mounted in the wall between two rooms and have all the support equipment in a convenient closet space behind, but that's definitely a long way off and I'm having a hard time solidifying the plan, especially because as much as I'd like to do it that way, I don't have the necessary skills to do it myself, and I'm thinking paying a re-modeler to do it would cost an arm and a leg. To that end, I'm figuring the display tank, when I eventually get it, is going to wind up on a stand for at least some months, so I need to make sure whatever stand I get is big enough for both the sump and the fuge [I]and</em> with an opening big enough for me to not only get the 'fuge in and out of it, but to do maintenance on both it and the sump. I do NOT like the idea of moving a bigger tank (I don't see myself going much bigger than 60gal tho), but I don't think moving even a 30gal a few feet will be that big a chore, even if I have to drain most of it to do it. The problem is, if I put it in the location I would ideally have it in (a closet), I'll never see it, which kind of defeats the purpose of having it while I'm trying to save for my real display. Either way I do it, it looks as if I'm likely going to have to custom make something for the purpose... I'm definitely going to want a tank that's been drilled, because I am NOT dealing with an overflow ever again :yuk: I might have some down time this weekend, if I do, I'll get into Google Sketch Up and see if I can't diagram for you all what I'm working with and solicit advice.

As for membership, yep, that's definitely a topic for a different thread.

So, I think I hit most of the high points. Clearly, none of this is set in stone and I'm still open to all suggestions (though I do believe I'm pretty set on not buying any more water and getting a filter as planned, but if you've got a better source on a 5+ stage with tank for a better price - or have one to sell - I'm all ears). Thanks to all for their replies, interest, comments and compliments. As I've been out of the hobby for 5 some years now, I have catching up to do, and I'm liable to make mistakes, but I do want to get this as right as possible the first time while not making my wife want to kill me by spending money I should be saving for other things. Once I get back from Savannah this weekend and have talked with my buddy Vinay, I should have a better handle on what's going on and will update this thread again with what I have in mind. One of my other big concerns is that my basement apartment currently has no air conditioning (besides a trickle from upstairs) and I'm worried about the heat created by a large tank. I definitely don't want to deal with a chiller, so that's another reason I'm keeping it small for the time being, until we can get that worked out as well (hopefully very soon, but that's another thing preventing me from spending much money on this project).

I will most definitely start upping pics as soon as I have something worth of it, I suppose I should document my process as I go.

Only because I'd like to encourage further discussion on the subject so I can learn from others and get new ideas, beyond the basics, further thoughts on actual set up (what kind of sand, should I also use mud, rubble, etc., will I be ok without a filter? should I try to arrange flow in the tank to pass over some kind of media?) are definitely appreciated as regards a tank with the following: a shrimp or two, some janitors/CUC, a few bits of rock, chaeto, mangroves and if I'm really lucky, seahorses. I have two good lamps for a 50gal tank (though I may need new bulbs... these were used for about 8 months then spent 4-some years in storage) and the more I think about it, the more I think I'll have a hard time resisting eventually adding some corals. I know next to nothing about mangroves and I can't seem to find the Tunze "Stick-in-a-box"es anywhere... I guess I could make/rig a little box with magnets to hold them in right at the top of the water level? As before, I know they're not as efficient as the chaeto, I just think they'd be cool to have, and I understand seahorses like them.

Ok, apologies for the long post, and thanks yet again to all who read it. It's pretty much the end of my day, so I'm done for now. Cheers!

:fish:

 

[superclown]

just a tidbit, while algae will grow regardless of spectrum I have heard many times over and seen for myself that algae will grow more under the red spectrum

 

[dine]

plant life in general grows long and stringy under the red spectrum for what its worth