Tropic Marin +NP

[jcook54]

Hey gang, do any of y'all use Tropic Marin's Plus-NP to dose nitrates and phosphates? My frag tank levels of NO3 and PO4 are bottoming out and I'm giving it a shot. Previously I dosed NO3 and PO4 separately but the +NP sounds like a really good product for when a reefer needs to dose both. Here's the problem I'm having - apparently you can't actually test for the concentration levels of NO3 or PO4 in the water when you dose it. When establishing a dosing regimen I typically do the following:

1. Test the water for what I'm going to dose.
2. Dose with a less-than-recommended dose.
3. Test again after an hour or two to see how much I actually added.

It's not an exact science given the margin of error on our hobby-grade test kits but these steps give me a pretty good ballpark on how much I'm actually adding to my system. In researching the use of +NP I came across the reply seen below. The original question to Tropic Marin was something like "Why have my nitrate levels gone down since I've started dosing Plus +NP?" Here's Tropic Marin's response:


I can assure you that you have done nothing wrong. What you are seeing is normal with Plus-NP. Most of the nitrogen in Plus-NP is not in the nitrate form but in ammonium and organic form. Phosphate is also added in a form that cannot be measured with normal test kits readily but is bioavailable to the corals and other marine organisms. The nutrients are dosed in an organic matrix that supports the conversion of some of the nutrients to bacterial biomass which is available to the corals as well. The background of this unconventional approach is, that nitrate is not the best form of nitrogen for corals and may even have adverse effects, and phosphate in the form of orthophosphate readily adsorbs to calcareous materials and is not available to corals any more. We avoid these problems by our unconventional approach, but with the drawback that the nutrients cannot be found by testing readily.

We recommend to watch the corals in order to assess the effect of the nutrient supply. After some days the phosphate will show up in testing and we have adjusted our recommendations to the phosphate supply only.

Kind regards

Hans-Werner Balling

With that in mind, I'm worried about overdosing NO3 & PO4 using the product because I can't test for it. Do any of you guys dose this and, if so, how much? When I dose PO4 by itself, I use 2 drops because it's potent stuff and I really don't want to screw anything up.

@ichthyoid

 

[Adam]

I am very interested in this as well. I've always gone under the rule "Don't add anything you can't test for." I do dose Brightwell trace products at half the recommended rate, along with Iron for the ATS but I back those up with quarterly ICP tests to verify I'm not over dosing.

With these two organics, an overdose could yield very undesired results.

 

[gainesvillereef]

I was just reading a thread on dosing ammonia on R2R the other day. I have read many times what he says about ammonia versus nitrate. There seems to be a consensus that corals and algae can more easily uptake ammonia/ammonium. The same for what he is saying about phosphate. Though most of the time Balling is the ultimate source of that info. That being said he is a very credible source.

IMO this might be a very good option for frag tanks with little or no fish. But their instructions require eyeball testing, I can see how appropriate dosing could be a challenge. But, don't we use our eyeballs to determine how much we feed the fish? I have not looked at this because they have similar products that include carbon sources and I wrongly assumed the same for this. I think I might give it a try now.

 

[jcook54]

Ya, it's the "undesired results" that I'm concerned about. @gainesvillereef This is in a frag tank, total volume somewhere around 70g with 4 fish. I added 2 additional fish 3 weeks ago to bring the total up to 6 but my levels are constantly bouncing along the bottom using Salifert for NO3 and Hanna ULN for PO4.

In the normal progression of things, I believe that what we see with out eyes reflects tank condition that are a few weeks old. Catastrophic things can happen quickly, sure, but in the day-to-day pattern, happy corals mean that the conditions were good 2 weeks ago. For example, slowly falling Alk levels will eventually show up as diminished colors and retarded growth but there's an interval in between what conditions are and what the coral shows. My concern with the Plus NP is that the 1mL every other day that I've decided to dose is WAY too much somehow and I'll only know it in Mid-January. With that concern, do I not dose it and wait and see? Do I cut that in half? Is cutting it in half too much? Who knows? One thing I do know is that max recommended dose is 1mL per day per 26 gallons. That would suggest that the max daily dose per day for my system would be a little over 2.5mL per day. So, 1mL every other day is quite less than half the recommended dose and I probably won't blow the whole system up.

 

[Adam]

I was just reading a thread on dosing ammonia on R2R the other day. I have read many times what he says about ammonia versus nitrate. There seems to be a consensus that corals and algae can more easily uptake ammonia/ammonium. The same for what he is saying about phosphate. Though most of the time Balling is the ultimate source of that info. That being said he is a very credible source.

IMO this might be a very good option for frag tanks with little or no fish. But their instructions require eyeball testing, I can see how appropriate dosing could be a challenge. But, don't we use our eyeballs to determine how much we feed the fish? I have not looked at this because they have similar products that include carbon sources and I wrongly assumed the same for this. I think I might give it a try now.

But wouldn't ammonia added today be nitrate when tested tomorrow? Sure it would be less than the coral up took, after that the bacteria in the tank would convert it pretty quickly.
A noob, or even an expert, screwing up a dose of ammonia could kill fish. Quickly.

 

[gainesvillereef]

But wouldn't ammonia added today be nitrate when tested tomorrow? Sure it would be less than the coral up took, after that the bacteria in the tank would convert it pretty quickly.
A noob, or even an expert, screwing up a dose of ammonia could kill fish. Quickly.

The arguments I have read say that the nitrate has to be converted back to ammonia before it can be used by the corals or algae. The concept is not something new. People have pretty much been doing it since day one. The main reason I have never done it is finding a quality source. One brand of cleaning ammonia may be acceptable one time but not the next. Also, it is challenging to dose low quantities. Like vinegar, if you dilute it too much, bacteria will consume it before you dose. The TM product seems to bind it somehow to make its dilution somewhat stable.

My preferred method of dosing Ammonia is with fish, I am just saying that with the lack of fish in coral qt tanks, it may be a nice option as it solves the 2 problems that have kept me from trying ammonia dosing.

 

[gainesvillereef]

Ya, it's the "undesired results" that I'm concerned about. @gainesvillereef This is in a frag tank, total volume somewhere around 70g with 4 fish. I added 2 additional fish 3 weeks ago to bring the total up to 6 but my levels are constantly bouncing along the bottom using Salifert for NO3 and Hanna ULN for PO4.

In the normal progression of things, I believe that what we see with out eyes reflects tank condition that are a few weeks old. Catastrophic things can happen quickly, sure, but in the day-to-day pattern, happy corals mean that the conditions were good 2 weeks ago. For example, slowly falling Alk levels will eventually show up as diminished colors and retarded growth but there's an interval in between what conditions are and what the coral shows. My concern with the Plus NP is that the 1mL every other day that I've decided to dose is WAY too much somehow and I'll only know it in Mid-January. With that concern, do I not dose it and wait and see? Do I cut that in half? Is cutting it in half too much? Who knows? One thing I do know is that max recommended dose is 1mL per day per 26 gallons. That would suggest that the max daily dose per day for my system would be a little over 2.5mL per day. So, 1mL every other day is quite less than half the recommended dose and I probably won't blow the whole system up.

I agree with your approach. I typically dose half as recommended as well. I am looking at this product as fish waste in a bottle. I think eventually your nitrates and phosphates will rise. But they will rise in the same way as if you were adding fish to the tank and increasing feeding. My guess is that the people that say their nitrates and phosphates are not rising are not using long enough. Let us know how it works for you.

 

[Adam]

The arguments I have read say that the nitrate has to be converted back to ammonia before it can be used by the corals or algae. The concept is not something new. People have pretty much been doing it since day one. The main reason I have never done it is finding a quality source. One brand of cleaning ammonia may be acceptable one time but not the next. Also, it is challenging to dose low quantities. Like vinegar, if you dilute it too much, bacteria will consume it before you dose. The TM product seems to bind it somehow to make its dilution somewhat stable.

My preferred method of dosing Ammonia is with fish, I am just saying that with the lack of fish in coral qt tanks, it may be a nice option as it solves the 2 problems that have kept me from trying ammonia dosing.

I didn't know nitrogen fixation happened in the ocean or aquariums. I thought it was a soil thing using atmospheric nitrogen. Every search on Google I've tried just shows the normal nitrogen cycle. I'd love to read up some more on this, would you happen to have a link?

 

[gainesvillereef]

I didn't know nitrogen fixation happened in the ocean or aquariums. I thought it was a soil thing using atmospheric nitrogen. Every search on Google I've tried just shows the normal nitrogen cycle. I'd love to read up some more on this, would you happen to have a link?

If you look at the "nitrogen cycles" they usually don't show the complete cycle and leave off the fixation. But Nitrogen is fixed by organisms producing amino acids/proteins. For example, when you throw a shrimp in a tank to cycle. The first thing that happens is that some bacteria will release the nitrogen, in the form of ammonia, that has been fixed in the shrimp protein. So it happens everywhere life exists. As aquarists, we are conditioned to think of tank cycling as only processing ammonia. But it is a full circle.

 

[ichthyoid]

Nitrogen fixation happens in the oceans also. It is a slow process, whether in soil or aquatic systems & is inhibited by elevated nitrate levels. This process of converting N2 to NO3 is only significant at very low nitrogen levels.

As for Tropic Marin’s +NP, I plan to use that to dose N & P, in addition to bacteria & All for Reef. What I will attempt is to attain a level of of nutrient input & metabolism which exceeds that contributed by the fish/food. If successful it would yield an inherently stable nutrient balance in an aquarium (closed) system.

Ammonium does not last long in an aquatic environment. Conversion to nitrite occurs very rapidly, and there are multiple bacteria strains capable of doing the converting. Conversion from nitrite to nitrate is a slower process, but proceeds unless inhibited by some substance or condition.

With corals, it is important to consider the bacteria they live in associated communities with. The coral is completely covered, inside & outside with billions of bacteria. Just like we are. The coral’s existence is dependent on the right type & sufficient numbers (& health) of the bacterial they live with. Some of which are also consumed as food. Same is true of the zooxanthellae. Their levels rise & fall as nutritional, metabolic & environmental conditions in & around the coral change. This is one underlying reason why stability is so important in an aquarium. The bacteria reproduce from between every ~30 minutes to several hours. That means many generations of new bacteria are made EACH DAY! If we introduce changes in temp., salinity, alkalinity/pH, nutrients, trace elements, etc., we often influence bacterial metabolic stability in the process. These are single called organisms, with very limited ability to adapt to a changing environment around them. Screw with the bacteria & the corals often suffer as a consequence.

It might be more accurate to think of a coral as an organism derived to successfully harbor & produce specific types of bacteria, rather than the other way around.

That said, many bacteria are very proficient at utilizing organic forms of foods & nutrients. These organic substances can exist in many different forms, as studied in the field of organic chemistry (specifically the chemistry of carbon based compounds). These compounds may include hydrocarbons, alcohols & phenols, aldehydes, ketones, carboxylic acids, amines and their combinations, such as amino acids (amines coupled to carboxylic acids). This field is incredibly complex but also quite fascinating!

In living organisms metabolic processes also usually involve specific enzymes which make specific reactions occur. There are also hormones which regulate activity on a cellular level. So, now welcome to biochemistry!

Also for +NP, I might suggest starting at 10-25% of the recommended maximum dose. Then gradually increase, say 10% per week. Watch for any negative reaction. You may not see much increase in inorganic nutrient levels, as measured with a test kit, because these kits are not designed to measure the organic forms, as previously mentioned.

 

[gainesvillereef]

Nitrogen fixation happens in the oceans also. It is a slow process, whether in soil or aquatic systems & is inhibited by elevated nitrate levels. This process of converting N2 to NO3 is only significant at very low nitrogen levels.

As for Tropic Marin’s +NP, I plan to use that to dose N & P, in addition to bacteria & All for Reef. What I will attempt is to attain a level of of nutrient input & metabolism which exceeds that contributed by the fish/food. If successful it would yield an inherently stable nutrient balance in an aquarium (closed) system.

Ammonium does not last long in an aquatic environment. Conversion to nitrite occurs very rapidly, and there are multiple bacteria strains capable of doing the converting. Conversion from nitrite to nitrate is a slower process, but proceeds unless inhibited by some substance or condition.

With corals, it is important to consider the bacteria they live in associated communities with. The coral is completely covered, inside & outside with billions of bacteria. Just like we are. The coral’s existence is dependent on the right type & sufficient numbers (& health) of the bacterial they live with. Some of which are also consumed as food. Same is true of the zooxanthellae. Their levels rise & fall as nutritional, metabolic & environmental conditions in & around the coral change. This is one underlying reason why stability is so important in an aquarium. The bacteria reproduce from between every ~30 minutes to several hours. That means many generations of new bacteria are made EACH DAY! If we introduce changes in temp., salinity, alkalinity/pH, nutrients, trace elements, etc., we often influence bacterial metabolic stability in the process. These are single called organisms, with very limited ability to adapt to a changing environment around them. Screw with the bacteria & the corals often suffer as a consequence.

It might be more accurate to think of a coral as an organism derived to successfully harbor & produce specific types of bacteria, rather than the other way around.

That said, many bacteria are very proficient at utilizing organic forms of foods & nutrients. These organic substances can exist in many different forms, as studied in the field of organic chemistry (specifically the chemistry of carbon based compounds). These compounds may include hydrocarbons, alcohols & phenols, aldehydes, ketones, carboxylic acids, amines and their combinations, such as amino acids (amines coupled to carboxylic acids). This field is incredibly complex but also quite fascinating!

In living organisms metabolic processes also usually involve specific enzymes which make specific reactions occur. There are also hormones which regulate activity on a cellular level. So, now welcome to biochemistry!

Also for +NP, I might suggest starting at 10-25% of the recommended maximum dose. Then gradually increase, say 10% per week. Watch for any negative reaction. You may not see much increase in inorganic nutrient levels, as measured with a test kit, because these kits are not designed to measure the organic forms, as previously mentioned.

Thanks, Bill.

I have been trying to focus on microbial biodiversity for the last 1-2 yrs. One of the things challenging is not having any direct measurable parameters to determine success. It's not like dosing vodka and being able to test nitrates and watch them lower. Instead, the corals and algae become the gauge. Also, it takes longer to witness the effects. It will often take several weeks for the bacterial populations to adjust and the effects to be seen. The benefit of this latency also means adding inherent tank stability. I am amazed at how well these bacteria can self regulate if you give them the right environment.

 

[Adam]

@ichthyoid @gainesvillereef

I appreciate the info but I'm still kinda lost on the nitrate to ammonia part. If a system has low NO3 and we add sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate to bring it up where is it converted from NO3 to NH3 like Carl stated above?
Then what is the Tropic Marin product doing different to deliver a more bioavabile form of nitrate and phosphate? I see it also has organic carbon.

I'm just trying to figure out why I'd want to use this product vs adding a fish or two while feeding a little more. I'm reading some threads on R2R as well but so far exactly what's different is illuding me.

 

[Adam]

Also, in my experience so far I've been on the other side of this where I've had to use products to get my PO4 down. I've had the NO3 bottom out once but even that hasn't been a continual problem.

I'm hoping to be able to work out a plan to keep my nutrients in check right from the start with the new system.

 

[Adam]

Tropic Marin Plus-NP, why combining N+P+Carbon in the same bottle?

I've been trying to figure out a safe way to dose nutrients without it screwing up my system with algae. After some time I found "Tropic Marin Plus-NP". But it's hard to understand how it works exactly because as I understand, its N + P + Carbon? So it would only be available for a small time...

www.reef2reef.com

Good read, but still very limited info on NO3 to ammonia fixation.

With all the work I've done cleaning and stripping bound phosphate from my rock I really want to start up the system in the best way possible not to reintroduce it to the calcium carbonate.

 

[ichthyoid]

It’s important to remember that flora & fauna in aquatic systems require ‘nitrogen & phosphorous’, among other elements.

Nitrate & phosphate are just 2 types of (inorganic) molecules which contain these 2 elements. There are many other forms as well, both inorganic (not containing carbon) & organic (containing carbon).

Also, N & P are just 2 of the elements required, in addition to many other elements like carbon, calcium, magnesium, etc. All of which may be required & be limiting if in insufficient quantity. N&P get a lot of attention because they are major elements, meaning they are required in large amounts, relatively speaking.

As for the nitrate to ammonium part- this may happen within organisms, but may also occur extracellularly because we know some bacteria provide enzymes in their local environment. Such as when digesting a dead fish, for example. They exude enzymes locally to reduce the proteins to a soluble form which they can then absorb.

Here is how that may happen-
“Nitrate, nitrite, and ammonium, called dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN), can be taken up (via membrane transporters) and assimilated by many microorganisms. Nitrate is assimilated after sequential reduction to nitrite (assimilatory nitrate reductase) and ammonium (assimilatory nitrite reductase).”

Nutrient cycling is very complex and most of it is poorly understood. Here is a lengthy, though thorough review of the subject-

Nitrogen Cycling in the Ocean: New Perspectives on Processes and Paradigms

The nitrogen (N) cycle is composed of multiple transformations of nitrogenous compounds, catalyzed primarily by microbes. The N cycle controls the availability of nitrogenous nutrients and biological productivity in marine systems ([84][1]) and thus is linked to the fixation of atmospheric carbon

aem.asm.org

 

[ichthyoid]

Tropic Marin Plus-NP, why combining N+P+Carbon in the same bottle?

I've been trying to figure out a safe way to dose nutrients without it screwing up my system with algae. After some time I found "Tropic Marin Plus-NP". But it's hard to understand how it works exactly because as I understand, its N + P + Carbon? So it would only be available for a small time...

www.reef2reef.com

Good read, but still very limited info on NO3 to ammonia fixation.

With all the work I've done cleaning and stripping bound phosphate from my rock I really want to start up the system in the best way possible not to reintroduce it to the calcium carbonate.

Limiting inorganic phosphorous (ie- soluble phosphate) will limit it’s deposition on your aragonite rock.