Wet/Dry vs. Refugium

[haninja]

<span style="font-family: Tahoma;">So I got this deal on a used 46 bowfront that came with an overflow and a 75g rated wet/dry with bio balls. It also came with a coralife super skimmer hanging on the end of the sump. Because it’s a bowfront, the area under the tank is very limited and I don’t think I can fit the wet/dry and a fuge.</span>
<span style="font-family: Tahoma;">I do have a 10g fuge that can be put instead of the wet/dry.</span>
<span style="font-family: Tahoma;">I read a lot of opinions about the wet/dry with bio balls. Some say it’s a nitrate factory, other say that with proper maintenance it serves the purpose.</span>
<span style="font-family: Tahoma;">On the other hand, the wet/dry doesn’t add a lot of water volume. I’m guessing it holds no more then 2g while the fuge can hold 10g.</span>
<span style="font-family: Tahoma;">Then, there’s the question about flow. The setup came with a mag 5 pump return. From other posts I understand that I shouldn’t have a lot of flow in the fuge. </span>

<span style="font-family: Tahoma;">So basically I’m trying to solicit opinions as to which direction to go… </span>

 

[george]

What kind of setup are you aiming for? Fish only or a reef? In the reef case, you definitely want to loose the bio balls. I have used them for braking water flow in a reef, but you have to be meticulous about keeping them clean. By "clean" I mean sterile otherwise they'll start to grow bacteria and become a nitrate factory.

I would use the fuge, but use the wet/dry without the bio balls as a sump. Split the Mag 5 so that some feeds the fuge and the fuge output either goes back to the sump or into the tank.

 

[cameron]

I would dump the wet dry as they are incredibly inferior to a good skimmer/fuge setup. Often wet/dry filters are more trouble than they are worth. Use that space for a good skimmer instead.

Flow in your fuge should be about 10-20x minimum (based on the size of the fuge) and you can go faster. Through the sump 3-5x total water volume of the system is a good number. If you have a 10g fuge, 100-200gph is a minimum and you can do more if you like. Throu the sump targetting for 56g (tank + fuge times 5) would be about 300gph. After head loss, you aren't too far off but had I the budget I would probably move down a size otherwise I would leave it alone. It will work fine it just isn't as optimal as it could be.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

To give you an idea, I use my old wet dry as a "sump" and ditch it for anyother practial use in a reef tank. In a FOWLR tank the show some uses but still not anything that a good fuge and skimmer can not replace!

 

[haninja]

<span style="font-family: Tahoma;">Thanks guys. This is along the line that I was thinking about. Fuge it is&#8230; I&#8217;ll be knocking on your door soon for some chato </span><span style="font-family: Wingdings;"><span style="font-family: Wingdings;">J</span></span>

 

[kelly3341]

do both. Buy a hang on fuge. In my opinion, if you have enough live rock and peform water changes on a periodic basis you will not have a problem.

 

[cameron]

haninja;51027 wrote: <span style="font-family: Tahoma;">Thanks guys. This is along the line that I was thinking about. Fuge it is… I’ll be knocking on your door soon for some chato </span><span style="font-family: Wingdings;"><span style="font-family: Wingdings;">J</span></span>

I live off of Jones Bridge Road in Alpharetta and will happily pull some starter chaeto off for you.

 

[haninja]

Thanks Cameron. I already been to your house when I first started with my 20g... I still have the Xenia you gave me.

Cameron;51116 wrote: I live off of Jones Bridge Road in Alpharetta and will happily pull some starter chaeto off for you.

 

[cameron]

Oh yeah... so many people come and go I forget. Stop on in and get some of that green goodness. It grew out of a tuft left over from some Brandon let me borrow and I know have about a cubic foot of the stuff.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

LOL... Ya my Cheato grows like mad... I think I have a mutant strain or something... I throw out a football size clump about once every three weeks or so. Fixing to get rid of some more if you need it..

Ya I think a fuge is the way to go. I have a feeling people will learn that they are almost as important as your skimmer. I would not run a tank without one! Ok , let me change that, I would do without a HOB one but that is just because I do not think the small amount of water in a HOB fuge is enough to work with!

 

[cameron]

I am not convinced that a fuge is a requirement to run a tank. In fact, I am reading some research that suggests a fuge can retard the development of some corals. I do think the benefits outweigh many of the downsides of running a fuge, but lots of people have run a tank very successfully without one. I personally don't run a dedicated fuge and only in the last three months started using chaeto.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

See that is where our thoughts differ. I think research on stability created by a fuge is very interesting, I think the natural filtration created by a fuge can out perform most basic filtration devices, I think the denitrifacation of a DSB in a fuge can of set much of the deferred maintenance of a tank. I was running a fuge 10 years ago when the idea was still kind og foreign and will continue to run a fuge as long as I have a tank I believe. But this gets into my "screwy" ideas about different types of natural filtration. Can you run a tank without a fuge? Sure you can! Would I want to? Heck no! Just like you can run a tank with a wet/dry... Even a reef tank. It is not the best method to emplor in most educated opinions but it can be done and a tank with one could still be called a success!

 

[cameron]

Natural filtration of a fuge that isn't larger than the display tank will be very small compared to a good skimmer even with mangroves, a DSB and a variety of other algae. You need a very large fuge to begin seeing the big benefits of running one (namely zooplankton). A lot of people just use one because that is what they were told. I personally think some chaeto and a pod farm in a 20 gallon tank is better than DSB and the like in the same area. Different algaes can perform different tasks, but ultimately a fuge for most people is a safe place to grow pods, reduce phosphates naturally and somewhat limit nitrates. All of which can be done without a dedicated fuge.

Not saying they aren't worth it just saying you don't NEED one.

 

[george]

Cameron;51183 wrote: You need a very large fuge to begin seeing the big benefits of running one (namely zooplankton).

Anthony Calfo's book suggests this as a principle that showed promise. I know I got much better benefits and a fantastic live food supply from having a 15g fuge on a 25g display and now have a 25g fuge on a 40g display. From Calfo's book, the analysis seemed to be that it took a relatively large proportion of nutrient export material (i.e. macro algae) to provide any real benefit and an even larger amount for things like mangroves, though mangroves have other benefits, if I recall.

Certainly a large refugium makes keeping zooplankton grazer species like Mandarins much easier to keep.

 

[cameron]

That is what I have been reading as well. A lot of the books that recommend fuges seem to be overstating their usefulness when it comes to small size fuges. I also think a skimmer while not needed either is far more critical to keeping the unused DOCs and thus a variety of other problems to a minimum. Fuges can be beneficial in all sizes, but you it would seem that you need a rather large fuge to make a dent in filtration at least when compared to a skimmer.

 

[george]

Totally agreed on the skimmer. Not an option, but a requirement in my opinion.

Another good thing about the live food provided by a fuge is that it makes for a lower impact on the water quality than feeding dead food.

Based on my experiences with upping the refugium size thus far, my 60 cube is going to have a 55g refugium on it. Probably "excessive" in many circles, but my results thus far are scaling well.