Allelopathy (aka-'chemical warfare')

[ichthyoid]

What began as a discussion on the use of carbon and GFO, turned up information on allelopathy</em>, also known as chemical warfare between differing organisms. If you need any help sleeping, or are really concerned about this fascinating topic, just Google...'allelopathy among corals'.

Check out this article.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/cw.htm">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/cw.htm</a>

We have all likely wondered at some time...'now why did that happen?' This is a possible explaination for many of the things we see happen in our tanks, but just don't seem to make any sense. Happy reading. Any thoughts?

 

[smoothie]

Nice read.

 

[son of adam]

I will read that link, but your screen name had me wondering.
<span style="font-size: 13px">ich·thy·oid</span> (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif" alt="" />k[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif" alt="" />th[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif" alt="" />-oid[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif" alt="" />)
[I]n.</em> A fish or fishlike vertebrate.

[I]adj.</em> also [B]ich·thy·oi·dal[/B] ([IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif" alt="" />k[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif" alt="" />th[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif" alt="" />-oid[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif" alt="" />l) Characteristic of or resembling a fish.

 

[budsreef]

After reading through those articles I suspect I have some combination of corals that are causing a problem in my tank. Besides having several large species of leathers and mushrooms, I also have several favias, galaxea, and a very large rock of encrusting pavona. All of these are doing well in my tank which is a 120G with an additional 100G of support water.

All of those corals are doing well and so is a large Frogspawn and a large plating Montipora. Corals that aren't doing well are multiple zoas and palys and chalices. I've also tried to add a blastmousa which started dying immediately so I put it back into the frag tank.

 

[ichthyoid]

Son of Adam;418037 wrote: I will read that like, but your screen name had me wondering.
<span style="font-size: 13px">ich·thy·oid</span> (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif" alt="" />k[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif" alt="" />th[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif" alt="" />-oid[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif" alt="" />)
[I]n.</em> A fish or fishlike vertebrate.

[I]adj.</em> also [B]ich·thy·oi·dal[/B] ([IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif" alt="" />k[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif" alt="" />th[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif" alt="" />-oid[IMG]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif" alt="" />l) Characteristic of or resembling a fish.[/QUOTE]

It's a pun. It means 'like a fish', and I do 'like fish'.

Thanks for picking up on that. You are the first.

 

[son of adam]

Is that why they say over time a mature mixed reef doesn't work out?

 

[ichthyoid]

Son of Adam;418044 wrote: Is that why they say over time a mature mixed reef doesn't work out?

Yeah, I have heard it sometimes referred to in conversations about 'old tank syndrome', which was mentioned in Borneman's article. What does this mean? Do we need to set-up systems by closely related organsims? Have a tank for leathers, another one for bubbles, acro's, brains, zoo's, etc., etc.? Or can we manage through this via good skimming and/or use of carbon? Personnally, it makes me want to try another goniopora in a tank by itself!

 

[acroholic]

If this is an issue in reef tanks, which is one of those maybe or maybe not it has an effect in our reef tank topics, IMO, I would guess the main methods these chemicals are mitigated are by protein skimming, water changes, and the use of chemical media like GAC.

Allelopathy is one term I heard frequently when I was into freshwater Discus, relating to raising large numbers of spawn in growout tanks. Discus supposedly secrete chemicals that can limit the ability of their same species spawn brethren to grow, allowing certain fish to get larger than others. Then (late 1980s-mid 1990s), water changes and carbon were thought the best way to deal with it. Not really a big deal, however, because large water changes were standard practice for keeping discus anyways.
Dave

 

[ichthyoid]

Agreed, the jury is out here. Apparently, some have bigger issues, than others. Why, and to what extent, is likely fodder for a PhD thesis.

Interesting about the Discus' use of this phenomenon. Thanks!

 

[jennm]

David, I believe that form of "hormone warfare" is not unique to discus. It seems to occur frequently in conspecifics in small systems (or over-stocked ones). IMO it may be where the myth came about that "fish only grow to the size of their aquarium".

Jenn

 

[ichthyoid]

I'm a little surprised this thread/article didn't generate more interest. I was looking forward to hearing some...'here's what happened to me stories'. I guess chemical warefare either isn't a big deal, or it's poorly recognized/diagnosed.

 

[weaglereefer]

Here's what happened to me. I knocked a mille off the frag rack onto a toadstool leather. It couldn't have sat on the leather for more than a few seconds. I picked it up and put it back on the frag rack. Checked the tank appx 3 hours later and the mille was dead, bleached white and dead.

 

[ichthyoid]

au01st;418342 wrote: Here's what happened to me. I knocked a mille off the frag rack onto a toadstool leather. It couldn't have sat on the leather for more than a few seconds. I picked it up and put it back on the frag rack. Checked the tank appx 3 hours later and the mille was dead, bleached white and dead.

Wow! Now that is a pretty strong and direct indication of this phenomenon IMO. Thanks!

 

[johnr2604]

Well the article interested me. I believe we are able to remove it from our systems through skimming water changes and GAC. I have a mixed reef and havn't noticed much of a problem although I house corals known for this such as multiple leathers, favites, zoas, and mushrooms along with multiple species of SPS.

I had a talk with Anthony Calfo about this a MACNA. I was housing a lot of the same species in Nano's. I wasn't expeiriencing any effects at the time but he warned me about the long term effects of housing a mixed reef in such a small system. I think he said "Not that it can't be done but you would need ozone". This is when I decided bigger would be better. After all "dilution is the solution to polution". I still house the same corals but in a much larger system. I also run GAC actively and am diligent about changing it out. Allelopoathy is definetly something I have thought about but I'm still not willing to give up a mixed reef.

 

[jcusmarine]

Great topic. Very interesting read. Tagging along...