Are coral reefs really stabile?

grouper therapy

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Attached is an article containing some research information that might change your idea of how stable your system has to be in regards Temp and salinity swings

.http://www.reefland.com/articles/rho/reef-stability-a-moving-target">http://www.reefland.com/articles/rho/reef-stability-a-moving-target</a>

I would like to get your take on it after reading the article.
 
After skimming it I would have to agree that the reef environment changes just like seasons change. But I don't think temperature/salinity change in one hour, or day in the wild as fast as it can in lets say in my 29 gal biocube.
 
Rodasphoto;713378 wrote: After skimming it I would have to agree that the reef environment changes just like seasons change. But I don't think temperature/salinity change in one hour, or day in the wild as fast as it can in lets say in my 29 gal biocube.
If you read the entire article you will note a chart showing hourly changes in temperature on a reef in Indonesia.
 
It was an okay article. It would have been more telling if they had charted growth or decay rates of corals along with mapping environmental conditions, that would have been cool imo. Also, The greatest swing in temperatures in Fig two was 8 degrees F, that is about the maximum you want to let your temperature swing in a reef tank. Many tanks go through that kind of temperature fluctuation, especially in summer. But that swing of 17 degrees in the tide pool was crazy!!
Obviously, expensive controllers and chillers are by and large unnecessary, advertising hype to the contrary.
I totally disagree with this!!!! It kind of went against what the data showed. Sure you saw fluctuation but, the locations changed; such as the tide pool, lagoons, and deep water reefs. The environment changed and the corals within these different environments did as well. I think this article just proves that different animals are suited to different environments and conditions, and that sometimes as hobbyist we forget that. By forgetting I mean we put corals from this region and that region and we mix the fish from various places and we all expect them to react the same in the aquarium. That was my take away. Haha bring on the critics!
 
I will not critize but I will discuss your post:)

peachyreef;713440 wrote: lon Also, The greatest swing in temperatures in Fig two was 8 degrees F, that is about the maximum you want to let your temperature swing in a reef tank. <span style="color: Red"> </span><span style="color: Red">Why? </span>But that swing of 17 degrees in the tide pool was crazy!! I totally disagree with this!!!! <span style="color: Red">Why?</span><span style="color: Red"> </span>It kind of went against what the data showed. <span style="color: Red">How so</span>? Sure you saw fluctuation but, the locations changed; such as the tide pool, lagoons, and deep water reefs. The environment changed and the corals within these different environments did as well. <span style="color: Red">I'm pretty sure many of the same corals overlapped into multiple environment</span>s
 
I agree with the article... Good find... everyone is so into tweaking their tank.. just sit back and watch it for a while.. Quit fiddling around.. and just enjoy the dang thing.. temperature changes.... no harm...if they rise 20 degrees.. then worry
 
Todd_Washowich;713448 wrote: I agree with the article... Good find... everyone is so into tweaking their tank.. just sit back and watch it for a while.. Quit fiddling around.. and just enjoy the dang thing.. temperature changes.... no harm...if they rise 20 degrees.. then worry

Quote of the day.
 
grouper therapy;713374 wrote: Attached is an article containing some research information that might change your idea of how stable your system has to be in regards Temp and salinity swings

I would like to get your take on it after reading the article.

While the article was interesting, I don’t find it compelling or even relevant. It was very broad in it's evaluation of environmental variables for a "reef". What constitutes a "reef" in this article? We have members here with GSP, leather coral, and mushrooms in their tank. Is it a reef? Yes. Does it have the same environmental requirements of an Acro or NPS tank? No way. All are reefs though. The author also quotes surface temps. Living many years in Hawaii and swimming for hours on end in reefs, I can tell you surface temp means NOTHING! The formations of volcanic shelves and structures would create strange flows that would leave your bottom half chilly and top half balmy.

Many of us try and keep a variety of corals from a wide diversity of origins in the same tank. (Guilty) THAT's why consistency is paramount for many of us to achieve success. The only way such a diversity of species with different needs can be successfully kept and propagated is through a lack of environmental variances.

This hobby is built entirely around monkey see monkey do. We have not come to this point in the hobby with the collective experience that wide variables and extremes are good for our tank. Would we not all agree that CONSISTENCY means more for a successful reef than hitting a target number here and there?

I think the author may have some good points valid to a real reef ecosystem. I think there is a huge lack of information or variables taken into consideration to apply to our captive reefs. I don’t have enough time or desire to poke all the holes he has left open.
I’m no expert by ANY stretch in this hobby but this article is anecdotal at best. Even to a laymen like me.
 
grouper therapy;713447 wrote: I will not critize but I will discuss your post:)

8 degrees is around the max we would like it to fluctuate based on experience and what the books tell us. I guess the article brings that into question, but not accurately imo, because the studies had different locations, depth, currents, and creatures. We set the limit temp swing at 8 to accomidate and limit the stress level on a variety of animals. But that depends on what species we are comparing and who is talking. :)

I disagreed with the statement that said we did not need heating and chilling technology, because it was just plain dumb. You cant say that cold-water species such as the Catalina goby or the blue spotted jawfish would do just as well with temp swings of 20 degrees. Also, i don't believe all species are able to cope with that kind of stress on a daily basis. Maybe this artilce would have been true if it presented a specific biotype and compared it to an aquarium biotype but it did not. It was incomplete science in my opinion.

you correct in assuming many species overlap however there are many endimic species in the ocean, ones that can handle and need extremes and others that do not. Species that live in tide pools will be different than those that live in deep water. Not to mention many species just live in certain parts of the world. (ex. the lion fish, until recently) perhaps the ones that are able to spread into other biotypes are hardier as well? I dont know enough to prove that, and the author didn't convince me of much.
 
I noticed a change every few min to an hour while snorkelling the reef in Culebra for Thanksgiving. Big temp swings and the reef was on its way on the up and up. Coral and their algaes may be adapting and those may be the guys reproducing the reef. Dunno really but myself and the locals were pretty darned stoked. And by darned I mean this is a family site
 
Seth The Wine Guy;713541 wrote: While the article was interesting, I don’t find it compelling or even relevant. It was very broad in it's evaluation of environmental variables for a "reef". What constitutes a "reef" in this article? We have members here with GSP, leather coral, and mushrooms in their tank. Is it a reef? Yes. Does it have the same environmental requirements of an Acro or NPS tank? No way. All are reefs though. The author also quotes surface temps. Living many years in Hawaii and swimming for hours on end in reefs, I can tell you surface temp means NOTHING! The formations of volcanic shelves and structures would create strange flows that would leave your bottom half chilly and top half balmy. Most of the surface temps that was measured is not the actual surface of the water it is a few feet below the surface.

Many of us try and keep a variety of corals from a wide diversity of origins in the same tank. (Guilty) THAT's why consistency is paramount for many of us to achieve success. The only way such a diversity of species with different needs can be successfully kept and propagated is through a lack of environmental variances. By your own admission corals come from different regions with different parameters yet they survive in a tank with set parameters that are different than what they originated from.

This hobby is built entirely around monkey see monkey do. We have not come to this point in the hobby with the collective experience that wide variables and extremes are good for our tank. That is what is in question here to me . What is the definition of wide and extreme.
Would we not all agree that CONSISTENCY means more for a successful reef than hitting a target number here and there? No,

I think the author may have some good points valid to a real reef ecosystem. I think there is a huge lack of information or variables taken into consideration to apply to our captive reefs. I don’t have enough time or desire to poke all the holes he has left open.
I’m no expert by ANY stretch in this hobby but this article is anecdotal at best. Even to a laymen like me
. But yet we accept monkey see, monkey do? I think we could apply this at the hobbyist level as well.
One other thing I'm pretty sure he did not perform these studies. They data was obtained from researchers.

Edit: response
peachyreef;713592 wrote: 8 degrees is around the max we would like it to fluctuate based on experience and what the books tell us. <span style="color: Red"> Could you please reference that book </span>I guess the article brings that into question, but not accurately imo, because the studies had different locations, depth, currents, and creatures. We set the limit temp swing at 8 to accomidate and limit the stress level on a variety of animals. But that depends on what species we are comparing and who is talking. :)

I disagreed with the statement that said we did not need heating and chilling technology, because it was just plain dumb. You cant say that cold-water species such as the Catalina goby or the blue spotted jawfish would do just as well with temp swings of 20 degrees. <span style="color: Red">I think you read more into his statement than what I did . I think he was referencing the method of sale of this equipment by some stating a 2 degree temp swing is detrimental </span> Also, i don't believe all species are able to cope with that kind of stress on a daily basis. Maybe this artilce would have been true if it presented a specific biotype and compared it to an aquarium biotype but it did not. It was incomplete science in my opinion.<span style="color: Red"> Much like our anecdotal evidence presented by most in the hobby.
</span>
you correct in assuming<span style="color: Red">( </span><span style="color: Red">not an assumption)</span>many species overlap however there are many endimic species in the ocean, ones that can handle and need extremes and others that do not. Species that live in tide pools will be different than those that live in deep water. Not to mention many species just live in certain parts of the world. (ex. the lion fish, until recently) perhaps the ones that are able to spread into other biotypes are hardier as well? I dont know enough to prove that, and the author didn't convince me of much.<span style="color: Red"> I don't think that was his intent</span>.
 
I think you guys actually reinforced what the data provided revealed . It did not say that corals from one region would survive in another region. It provided evidence that most corals from those different regions all under went much larger variances in temp and salinity than we have been told that they could survive in or out of our tanks.
 
peachyreef;713440 wrote: It was an okay article. It would have been more telling if they had charted growth or decay rates of corals along with mapping environmental conditions, that would have been cool imo. Also, The greatest swing in temperatures in Fig two was 8 degrees F, that is about the maximum you want to let your temperature swing in a reef tank. Many tanks go through that kind of temperature fluctuation, especially in summer. But that swing of 17 degrees in the tide pool was crazy!! I totally disagree with this!!!! It kind of went against what the data showed. Sure you saw fluctuation but, the locations changed; such as the tide pool, lagoons, and deep water reefs. The environment changed and the corals within these different environments did as well. I think this article just proves that different animals are suited to different environments and conditions, and that sometimes as hobbyist we forget that. By forgetting I mean we put corals from this region and that region and we mix the fish from various places and we all expect them to react the same in the aquarium. That was my take away. Haha bring on the critics!


I also agree. Plus I think the problems we have are from:
1) Not giving the coral/fish enough time to adapt to the tank. In the wild we are talking years of growth, die off ...ect I see people change their display monthly by swaping from tank to tank.
also.. Some people change tank sizes and even equipment pretty quickly.

2) Making things too perfect. In the wild things are not perfect. Nature has a fix for just about everything. Our technology is making it to the point where the coral/fish live in a bubble. One 'natural' thing happens and it kills everything because they adapted to the perfect tank.
 
Seth The Wine Guy;713541 wrote:
Many of us try and keep a variety of corals from a wide diversity of origins in the same tank. (Guilty) <span style="color: Red">THAT's why consistency is paramount </span>for many of us to achieve success. The only way such a diversity of species with <span style="color: Red">different needs</span> can be successfully kept and propagated is through a<span style="color: Red"> lack of environmental variances. </span><span style="color: Red">
T
</span>

I find those contradict one another . Please explain.
 
Not picking on you Seth. ok I am :yes:
Seth The Wine Guy;713541 wrote: While the article was interesting, I don’t find it compelling or even relevant. It was very broad in it's evaluation of environmental variables for a "reef". <span style="color: Red">I thought it was exact . Temp and salinity was all he was discussing</span>What constitutes a "reef" in this article? <span style="color: Red">Some 1000 areas that were measured that had corals growing in saltwater.</span> We have members here with GSP, leather coral, and mushrooms in their tank. Is it a reef? Yes. Does it have the same environmental requirements of an Acro or NPS tank? No way. All are reefs though. <span style="color: Red"><span style="color: Black">The author also quotes surface temps. Living many years in Hawaii and swimming for hours on end in reefs, I can tell you surface temp means NOTHING! The formations of volcanic shelves and structures would create strange flows that would leave your bottom half chilly and top half balmy. </span> He actual mentions thermoclines and their effects on salinity
</span>
Many of us try and keep a variety of corals from a wide diversity of origins in the same tank. (Guilty) THAT's why consistency is paramount for many of us to achieve success. The only way such a diversity of species with different needs can be successfully kept and propagated is through a lack of environmental variances.

This hobby is built entirely around monkey see monkey do. We have not come to this point in the hobby with the collective experience that wide variables and extremes are good for our tank. Would we not all agree that CONSISTENCY means more for a successful reef than hitting a target number here and there?

I think the author may have some good points valid to a real reef ecosystem. I think there is a huge lack of information or variables taken into consideration to apply to our captive reefs. I don’t have enough time or desire to poke all the holes he has left open.
I’m no expert by ANY stretch in this hobby but this article is anecdotal at best. Even to a laymen like me.
 
grouper therapy;713655 wrote: [/COLOR]

I find those contradict one another . Please explain.

Actually, I would first like to hear your thoughts. Put the highlighter away and grab your pen!:cheers:
 
Seth The Wine Guy;713704 wrote: Actually, I would first like to hear your thoughts. Put the highlighter away and grab your pen!:cheers:
I will see you Tuesday and time permitting I would like to talk shop a little:up:
 
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