Are we messing with nature to much?

[sleepyreef]

If this club was truly into "ecological preservation" they would condone anyone taking a creature from the ocean and putting it in their little glass box to look at.

What I gather here is that people are OK with harvesting animals from the ocean for the enjoyment of people to look at in a glass box in your living room versus breeding fish for "desirable" traits?

So before you get on your high horse and look down your nose at the fish breeders, maybe you should check out where all those corals, clams, inverts, and fish came from in your glass box.

As long as someone is not releasing genetically altered fish into the wild, then it really is no one else's business what they are breeding.

Also as long as people continue to purchase puppies from the puppy mill (I will never even buy a dog from a pet store and my dog is just a terrier mix mutt I got for free and I love her to death) the puppy mills will continue to exist.

There is a dark side to the pet industry that many don't even want to think about.

 

[coolsurf]

Um, no one said all fish breeders were in the wrong. We are singleing out a specific area that "may" be wrong. We are all giving views on the subject.

BTW...no one is on a high horse.

 

[db366]

http://www.suite101.com/content/the-argument-against-designer-clownfishes-a154639">http://www.suite101.com/content/the-argument-against-designer-clownfishes-a154639</a>

Good read.

 

[pamelahaley]

db366;669801 wrote: http://www.suite101.com/content/the-argument-against-designer-clownfishes-a154639">http://www.suite101.com/content/the-argument-against-designer-clownfishes-a154639</a>

Good read.[/QUOTE]

<p style="text-align:left"><span style="color: #000000">“We can worry about making new fish when we can no longer obtain wild caught foundation stock. Until that occurs, preserving natural biodiversity—rather than creating our own—should be our main focus."</span>
<span style="color: #000000"> </span>
<span style="color: #000000">Aquaculture will prevent such an atrocity. Do it in tanks. Let the ocean have it's fish.
</span>

Edit: [IMG]http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10100354665808721&set=a.869577283041.2562798.5035383&type=1&theater">http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10100354665808721&set=a.869577283041.2562798.5035383&type=1&theater</a>

In other recent artworks, the above link is to a sweet vinyl I designed for my boyfriend's car.

Edit: stoopid browser... check it out anyway ;)

 

[thanh386]

Seth The Wine Guy;669735 wrote: Back on the thread after the PETA hijacking. What's wrong with it really? It's not like we are taking these fish and introducing them back into the wild, dislodging natures natural course through cross breeding in poor evolutionary traits. These creatures are for our viewing pleasure within our own self created ecosystems. We keep reef tanks because they're visually stimulating and fulfilling. Not because we are ecological preservation elitists.

How many blind people you know with a fish tank?

++++1^100000000000

Most of us here honestly couldn't care less about teh environment or the ecosystem around the world. You destroy rock, you remove animals from their natural habitat, and you fuel the craze. For all teh same reason, because its pretty

I have a reef tank because I enjoy the aesthetic of it. If one day the breed glow in teh dark clown i will be one of the first to buy it. Speaking of which imma go play god some more with my tank and get more designer clowns &gt;.&lt;. Maybe kill a couple of coral reefs while I'm at it cause I need more rock.

 

[stillfocus]

SleepyReef;669781 wrote: If this club was truly into "ecological preservation" they would condone anyone taking a creature from the ocean and putting it in their little glass box to look at.

Given that coral reefs around the world are declining without direct human intervention anyway, collection for aquarium use (both in the home and in commercial aquariums) may very well be preserving species that might have otherwise disappeared. It's a slippery slope, and there is no clear cut right or wrong.

Also, you can't just assume that designer breeds will never end up in the wild. You can make hypothetical arguments all day long, but you and I both know that's not how it works in the real world.

 

[pamelahaley]

I thought fish couldn't really imbreed like dogs or cats...

Most fish look identical naturally and, more than likely breed within the same gene pool in nature. Of a bunch of hatchlings, the few that survive will probably pair together, much like we get pairs from breeders on the board who paired while in the grow out tank.

Mammals interbreed in nature as well but, those that are interbred repeatedly to develop identical traits will end up deformed within a few generations.

I think the inbreeding between fish and mammals are two completely different things.

Who are we to say that 2 clowns from the same clutch, one hatching with a mis bar has any other deformities aside the cosmetic? Breeders take the mis bar and breed it with another mis bar from the same clutch or a different clutch (since it is an anomole)... This might actually remove the natural imbreeding from the fish's life cycle.

The fish's colors are developed in nature for a combination of camoflague and attractiveness for breeding (like birds)... If the fish isn't in nature, what's it's camoflague matter?

Edit:

Thanh386;669816 wrote: Maybe kill a couple of coral reefs while I'm at it cause I need more rock.

Agrocrete, DURR...

Has anyone ever noticed some of the the LR they buy is just well seasoned concrete?

WE also interfere in the wild by sinking ships and other structures which give fish shelter and life thrives around it.

The only damage that could be done to nature by breeding these aquacultured fish and perhaps letting one get out into nature, is it being in the wrong ecosystem and thriving off of the local wildlife... like the Skorpion Fish From Miami to the Caribbean.... they weren't aquacultured, just misplaced.

Hell, Think of the pythons in the Florida Everglades... not inbred or deformed, just thriving off the landscape as the new predator with no natural predators!

Edit: Shall we have an oxford debate?

 

[coolsurf]

Thanh386;669816 wrote: ++++1^100000000000

Most of us here honestly couldn't care less about teh environment or the ecosystem around the world. You destroy rock, you remove animals from their natural habitat, and you fuel the craze. For all teh same reason, because its pretty

Why don't you let the "most of us" speak for themselves without putting words in our mouths?

 

[thanh386]

I retract my statement than. I... soley me, doesn't really care what happens to our reefs. I, soley me... will continue to buy what makes him happy. I am proud to stand tall and say that I knowingly am destroying the reef of the world by supplying the demand for divers and merchants to continually sell livestock. I am ashamed that I cannot stop keeping reef .

That being said . Yea aggrocrete is great. I love it. Too bad I didn't know about it when I started my tank.

 

[pamelahaley]

Thanh386;669879 wrote: I retract my statement than. I... soley me, doesn't really care what happens to our reefs. I, soley me... will continue to buy what makes him happy. I am proud to stand tall and say that I knowingly am destroying the reef of the world by supplying the demand for divers and merchants to continually sell livestock. I am ashamed that I cannot stop keeping reef .

That being said . Yea aggrocrete is great. I love it. Too bad I didn't know about it when I started my tank.

Speaking for myself, you sound like a ****... I do my best only to buy aquaculture or trade frags from others. Leaves the reef alone that way.

Speaking of which, I love my toadstool, and so does my emerald crab but, it's getting too big. It's that or the finger leather's got to go... WHO WANTS FINGER LEATHER?

 

[kzoo]

Funny I started this for a discussion and some how it turned into something else. Part of reef keeping to me is speaking about new ideas right or wrong, but seems some people will always turn things into a fight. But this is a very selfish statement
"I retract my statement than. I... soley me, doesn't really care what happens to our reefs. I, soley me... will continue to buy what makes him happy"

And to say that you like to looking at your inhabitants of your tank but don't care what happens to them is very different than most people think in this hobby. At least I hope

 

[thanh386]

I am just saying. When was the last time u went to buy something and said to yourself. " maybe I shouldn't buy this because I dont have the money" vs " maybe I should buy this because it'll destroy the planet". We spend out money on convience and aesthetics. We should try to deny that. We live , we die... Try to enjoy it instead of trying to make other accept us. simple statement, and I stand by it. Do what makes YOU happy.

I treat my fish very well, and those who have been to me home have been graciously greeted. But take it how you like, I am not trying to please anyone other than myself

 

[coolsurf]

Let me think about that...hmmm...how about all the time! I am always conscious of what I am purchasing and how it affects the planet. I promote "green" at work and try to teach others. I agree with Pamelahaley as in getting frags or buying aquacultured not out of the ocean. These are just small examples.

It would probably amaze you at how many people feel the same way I do. When I was younger I looked at things a little less caring. Since, I have grown to appreciate what the world has and how to protect it. I think today's generation is getting better at learning and protecting as well. At least I hope so if our grandchildren want to enjoy it the same way we have.

I do agree with Kzoo..your comments are selfish but that is just my opinion. Those are the comments that result in our planets struggles such as with the cleaner wrasse.

Thanh386;669912 wrote: I am just saying. When was the last time u went to buy something and said to yourself. " maybe I shouldn't buy this because I dont have the money" vs " maybe I should buy this because it'll destroy the planet". We spend out money on convience and aesthetics. We should try to deny that. We live , we die... Try to enjoy it instead of trying to make other accept us. simple statement, and I stand by it. Do what makes YOU happy.

I treat my fish very well, and those who have been to me home have been graciously greeted. But take it how you like, I am not trying to please anyone other than myself

 

[thanh386]

Meh. I'll continue to buy things that are visually pleasing to me. Whether it's my designer clowns or wild coral colony. To each his own, like I said . Corals all originally came from the sea. Most of the fish we buy still do.

I'll enjoy my sports cars and suv for now. I can't say that's the bet thing buy unfortunately I need them to make life more fun. Walking and hybrids aren't my thing

 

[db366]

To try to swing things into a positive, anyone who buys a frag out of another persons tank is supporting this. Even if that coral is from the ocean you are buying from a tank instead of getting a whole new one out of the ocean.

Support your local reefer IMO.

 

[thanh386]

Lol. We all try to. Especially when they stop releasig certain corals. Most of my frags are free for friends, just in case something happens to mine. So it's self preservation.

 

[pamelahaley]

Oh well, Thanh... You make a decent point. Why should I care? Why bother trying to save the world when there are so many other's like you encouraging it's expedited demise.

 

[thanh386]

Yay!!! Someone else to join my cause. Let's hold hands next time we go smashing the planet.

Join the dark side young padawans!!!

 

[seth the wine guy]

Thanh386;669953 wrote: Yay!!! Someone else to join my cause. Let's hold hands next time we go smashing the planet.

Join the dark side young padawans!!!

I won't hate you as long as you share the Rasta love!

 

[thanh386]

Lol. I will officially own like 200 ratsa soon . Will probably spend a day Fraggin them