Buffered Sodium Ascorbate!

[acroholic]

EnderG60;576176 wrote: where is that thread on the eco aqualizer? that sounds funny

Here's the actual product website. Remember, the product is a PVC pipe with magnets taped around the outside. That's it.

 

[cr500_af]

I can't tell you how much better I sleep at night knowing there is an Eco Aqualizer dealer in Metro Atlanta. I'm tired of water changes. :lol2:

 

[jmaneyapanda]

AndrewG;576159 wrote: Jeremy,

The eco aqualyzer has got to be one of the funniest marketing gimmicks. I love the thread where the guy dissects it with photos.

What dosage of Vit C would you recommend for starters?

I've always added a few drops of garlic concentrate to the food which seems well received. Of course I feed a mix of 7 different ingredients. The fish eat better than my kids.

To be honest, I have no idea. I dont often dose for it. And Im sure each manufacturer would have different suggestions. However, as with many vitamins, I doubt youi could overdo it. But, also, with many such supplements, something to consider is they likely temporarily destroy your ORP.

Acroholic;576212 wrote: Maybe it is unfair, at least Vit C does have biological function, whereas the Eco Aqualizer doesn't. But the actual value as an additive to the reef tank is still very questionable, IMO.

But I have always preferred to give my fish their Vitamin C thru their diet with a variety of foods (Nori especially). JMO, but if you feed a varied diet to your fish you are probably meeting most of their nutritional needs and dosing Vitamin C is probably redundant.

My opinion may be a bit biased, however, because I personally think most of the nutritional additives sold are unnecessary and basically a waste of money. I do not dose anything in my reef tanks, meaning amino acids, garlic, food soaks, coral specific target foods, anything related to coral color or vitamins for fish, etc.

Offering a varied diet to your fish should provide the fish and corals with anything you would dose specifically, like vitamin C and the rest. I would rather take the $ I'd spend on those additives you really don't know if they work or not and spend it on high quality food.

I haven't dosed anything in the last two years and just provide a varied diet to my fish with zero target feeding of any corals, and I have five healthy tangs (and many other healthy fish) with no HLLE and corals with good color and fantastic growth.

Chemical stability, good water flow, proper lighting, and quality food are the key areas I believe that make a successful, healthy reef system with thriving fish and corals. The above JMO.

Even though Nori is purported to have high Vit C, Something to consider is that Vitamin C is generally very unstable, and easy to "devalue". Especially in the heating process, which all nori is heated. However, in regards to your statemnt, Im not sure I quite understand. You state you like you fish to ingest it via nori, but dont see the value in dosing it? Feeding it IS</em> dosing it. They are the same. Adding it to the water will yield the same mechanical and metabolic process as adding it to food. Except that non fish items (corals, inverts, etc), will also be able to ingest it, if dosed to the water column. Something to remember, is that fish DO drink water. As silly as it sounds, they do.

Also, FWIW, HLLE is likely not due too much to diet, as recent studies show. At least, not nearly as much as carbon. At least thats the latest info.

Dave, I agree with your principles, but I dont know if we, as aquarists, can make the leaps of deductions you are making. I too, feel that feeding a varied and robust diet is crucial to fish care. However, I dont feel suggesting that all needed vitamins, minerals, etc are in these diets is appropriate. What Vitamins and minerals? In what amounts? What constitutes a "good diet"? While I certainly dont suggest we all go out and buy and start using vitamin supplements for the tank (I feel the exact opposite, really), I DO feel that we dont understand much of our fishes dietary needs much at all. We have, however, been able to head to successful keeping based of previous experience and "track records", but this isnt necessarily meeting all those needs.

Just my opinion.

 

[acroholic]

jmaneyapanda;576248 wrote: Even though Nori is purported to have high Vit C, Something to consider is that Vitamin C is generally very unstable, and easy to "devalue". Especially in the heating process, which all nori is heated. However, in regards to your statemnt, Im not sure I quite understand. You state you like you fish to ingest it via nori, but dont see the value in dosing it? Feeding it IS</em> dosing it. They are the same. Adding it to the water will yield the same mechanical and metabolic process as adding it to food. Except that non fish items (corals, inverts, etc), will also be able to ingest it, if dosed to the water column. Something to remember, is that fish DO drink water. As silly as it sounds, they do.

Also, FWIW, HLLE is likely not due too much to diet, as recent studies show. At least, not nearly as much as carbon. At least thats the latest info.

Dave, I agree with your principles, but I dont know if we, as aquarists, can make the leaps of deductions you are making. I too, feel that feeding a varied and robust diet is crucial to fish care. However, I dont feel suggesting that all needed vitamins, minerals, etc are in these diets is appropriate. What Vitamins and minerals? In what amounts? What constitutes a "good diet"? While I certainly dont suggest we all go out and buy and start using vitamin supplements for the tank (I feel the exact opposite, really), I DO feel that we dont understand much of our fishes dietary needs much at all. We have, however, been able to head to successful keeping based of previous experience and "track records", but this isnt necessarily meeting all those needs.

Just my opinion.

As you and I have both stated, just my opinion. I've followed the varied diet with no nutritional dosing approach with freshwater fish and saltwater fish/corals for the last 25 years of my 36 years of keeping fish, and it has served me well. Do I have anything but anecdotal evidence? No. But neither does anyone else.

I'm not saying anyone has to follow my approach, but to me, the need to dose vitamin C or amino acids or whatever nutritionally related supplement you have to is to make up for something you are not providing to the fish in their diet. I do use carbon and have in my reef systems ever since startup with no HLLE. I can't say there is no correlation, just not IME.

However, I dont feel suggesting that all needed vitamins, minerals, etc are in these diets is appropriate.

The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle. Fish meet their needs in the wild somehow. Is a wild reef fish's diet "perfectly' balanced? Probably not. If no one can, as you state, exactly quantify "how much" of this or that vitamin or mineral is correct for a particular fish, and I assume one fish species needs vary from another's, then the varied diet approach seems as valid and able to meet their needs as any other.

Feeding vitamin C or dosing vitamin C, I won't get hung up on semantics. I prefer to feed a wide variety of foods and not worry about supplements. I currently feed about 12 different types of (prepared/frozen/self made) food to my reef fish. Better use of my reefing dollars and better for the health of the fish, IME.

There are many different, but just as valid, pathways to successfully meeting the needs of our reef inhabitants. Mine is not the only way, but it is a way.

 

[musicalocean]

Due to unfortunate circumstance I've had to dose my tank with it today as a last resort to save my fish. My husband bought a tang from a local store NOT all things aquatic! Which was where I wished he would have done in the 1st place! Anyway, the fish was bad sick & it's such a bad case till nothing is helping. Tried metro, garlic guard, vitality ect! Nothing touches this mess. I put in the buffered vitamin C a few hours ago & the difference is amazing! Fish that were at deaths door are now eating again & the huge systs are rapidly dissapearing. The corals have opened larger than I've ever seen especially the zoas & the torches.. Pretty much all the coral went nuts over it but I'm so relieved it helped my fish. No more new fish for me unless it's a member on here selling one. That way I know where it comes from thanks mike for saving my fish!!

 

[ichthyoid]

Below are some interesting links from the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point (from a chemistry lab discussion), and Oregon State University-Linus Pauling Institute, on Vitamin C and it's various forms and stability. Being an acid, Vitamin C is not stable in alkaline environments such as marine water (pH ~8.0+). The 'mineral salts' of vitamin C such as sodium acscorbate or calcium ascorbate are also discussed. Enjoy.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss01/bioavailability.html">http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss01/bioavailability.html</a>

[IMG]http://www.uwsp.edu/chemistry/jlawrenc/Content/Chem%20260%20Content/Chem%20260%20Labs/Vitamin%20C%20Lab.pdf">http://www.uwsp.edu/chemistry/jlawrenc/Content/Chem%20260%20Content/Chem%20260%20Labs/Vitamin%20C%20Lab.pdf</a>

 

[musicalocean]

I just came across this article & found it interesting. Notice where it mentions treating bacterial & other infections. Not saying I would dose my tank with it all the time but it sure helped today oops yesterday mean

 

[gnashty]

I did notice a "slimy film" on the top of my sump water and fuge when I was dosing....

 

[musicalocean]

I noticed a little film on the top of the water while mixing it in the RO water. So I filtered it through some cheese cloth before adding it to my tank.. Haven't noticed it in the sump yet but I only dosed the one time yesterday

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Acroholic;576273 wrote: As you and I have both stated, just my opinion. I've followed the varied diet with no nutritional dosing approach with freshwater fish and saltwater fish/corals for the last 25 years of my 36 years of keeping fish, and it has served me well. Do I have anything but anecdotal evidence? No. But neither does anyone else.

I'm not saying anyone has to follow my approach, but to me, the need to dose vitamin C or amino acids or whatever nutritionally related supplement you have to is to make up for something you are not providing to the fish in their diet. I do use carbon and have in my reef systems ever since startup with no HLLE. I can't say there is no correlation, just not IME.



The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle. Fish meet their needs in the wild somehow. Is a wild reef fish's diet "perfectly' balanced? Probably not. If no one can, as you state, exactly quantify "how much" of this or that vitamin or mineral is correct for a particular fish, and I assume one fish species needs vary from another's, then the varied diet approach seems as valid and able to meet their needs as any other.

Feeding vitamin C or dosing vitamin C, I won't get hung up on semantics. I prefer to feed a wide variety of foods and not worry about supplements. I currently feed about 12 different types of (prepared/frozen/self made) food to my reef fish. Better use of my reefing dollars and better for the health of the fish, IME.

There are many different, but just as valid, pathways to successfully meeting the needs of our reef inhabitants. Mine is not the only way, but it is a way.

Dave, dont get defensive. I am not attacking you, or your methods. I was merely commenting towards a comment you made, about vitamin C being "snake oil". I disagree with that sentiment, thats all. It has NOTHING to do with you, your experience, you success, or anything otherwise.

As for HLLE and carbon, I didnt say there was an absolute correlation, that everyone who uses carbon, gets HLLE. I said the most recent research shows that carbon is a DEFINITE cause. And a long lasting one, too. And it also has shown that diet is less a cause (and consequent remedy) as has been speculated in the past. Let me know if you want that info, and Ill forward it.

However, your suggestion that a wild fishes diet is not "perfectly balanced" is something I cannot disagree with more. Wild fish have adapted and evolved over hundreds of millions of years to eat exactly what they do in the wild, and thrive at it. Their wild diet is EXACTLY PERFECTLY BALANCED. Otherwise, they would have adapted to eat something else over time, and the species would have "plasticized".

Varied diets means so much more than providing vitamins and minerals. There are fats, carbohydrates, roughage, gut micro flora and fauna to consider, and these are things which we have NO IDEA about. So, suggesting that we provided any knowledge of meeting these needs isnt appropriate in my opinion. We have the benefit of our previous aquarists experience and successes to base our knowledge off of, but this, still is in no way, a documentation of "meeting fishes requiremnets". It is a template for us to follow to have a modicum of success. That is all Im trying to say.

If you feel that dosing vitamin C doesnt work for you, or is useless for you, So be it. It very well may be. And I wont argue with your success. However, I dont feel you can accurately say it is snake oil, because vitamin C does have good properties biologically, and can be proposed to have positive qualities deductively, just as far, if not farther than, simply saying "I dont use it, and I have success, therefore its garbage".

 

[acroholic]

Dave, dont get defensive. I am not attacking you, or your methods. I was merely commenting towards a comment you made, about vitamin C being "snake oil". I disagree with that sentiment, thats all. It has NOTHING to do with you, your experience, you success, or anything otherwise.

And I have already conceded that that statement was probably unfair, and I further stated that IMO the value of dosing vitamin C is questionable. So why continue the argument about that when I corrected my statement in post 76?

However, your suggestion that a wild fishes diet is not "perfectly balanced" is something I cannot disagree with more. Wild fish have adapted and evolved over hundreds of millions of years to eat exactly what they do in the wild, and thrive at it. Their wild diet is EXACTLY PERFECTLY BALANCED. Otherwise, they would have adapted to eat something else over time, and the species would have "plasticized".

I understand your above statement, but I don't agree that every animal gets a perfectly balanced diet every time. Fish and land animals have seasonal and yearly variations of what and how much of a particular food item is available to them. If a normal food item is not available or unusually limited because of drought or other environmental condition, some animals may die, or respond by having fewer babies, and even those may not survive if the mother does not produce enough milk to feed her young. If not enough food of a certain type is available, are the animals getting a perfectly balanced diet? Probably not. They are surviving, but not thriving. Fish are probably evolved to seek alternate sources of nutrition the way land animals are. Are they getting a perfectly balanced diet every day/year, etc? I would think there are times that they survive more than thrive like any other wild animal based on what food is available to them any particular year or month. Is that an unreasonable assumption?

Varied diets means so much more than providing vitamins and minerals. There are fats, carbohydrates, roughage, gut micro flora and fauna to consider, and these are things which we have NO IDEA about. So, suggesting that we provided any knowledge of meeting these needs isnt appropriate in my opinion. We have the benefit of our previous aquarists experience and successes to base our knowledge off of, but this, still is in no way, a documentation of "meeting fishes requiremnets". It is a template for us to follow to have a modicum of success. That is all Im trying to say.

I never suggested that I provided scientific knowledge of meeting a fish's needs. If you refer to my posts, I qualify my statements with "my opinion" or "my experience" throughout. I have provided my anecdotal experience and opinions only, and never made claim to anything else. Furthermore, I stated that my experience was anecdotal, as is everyone's.

I stated my opinion that attempting to meet a fish's nutritional needs through a varied diet is as valid as any other, not better. I stated that you could probably meet "most" of their nutritional requirements through a varied diet. Never did I say "all".

If you feel that dosing vitamin C doesnt work for you, or is useless for you, So be it. It very well may be. And I wont argue with your success. However, I dont feel you can accurately say it is snake oil, because vitamin C does have good properties biologically, and can be proposed to have positive qualities deductively, just as far, if not farther than, simply saying "I dont use it, and I have success, therefore its garbage".

Again, I amended my "snake oil" statement back in post 76. I listened to you the first time. Why bring it up again?

 

[enderg60]

you two...http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/images/smilies/slapfight.gif" alt="" />

haha, well I got the stuff last night and started with a 1/3 dose. got a bit of a film on the water surface but other then that no problems. Ill do a 2/3 dose tonight and see how it goes.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Sorry for disrupting. My intention was only to express my opinion, and explain it, as well. I apologize for giving the impression of argument.

 

[gnashty]

EnderG60;576446 wrote: you two...http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/images/smilies/slapfight.gif" alt="" />

[/QUOTE]

Awesome smiley....never saw that one before!!!

 

[enderg60]

jmaneyapanda;576457 wrote: Sorry for disrupting. My intention was only to express my opinion, and explain it, as well. I apologize for giving the impression of argument.

no need to apologize i was just making fun of you two bickering