Cliff notes of Seachem speech at last night's meeting

[xyzpdq0121]

Cameron;55894 wrote: I do as after reading found out it is very hard to overdose. That said, I am suprised a bit because Adv Calcium is designed to raise Ca mainly due to the fact it has Mag in it. What are the advantages over their regular calcium product if Adv Calcium doesn't increase the mag content in the tank to a reasonable level? Hmmm... should have showed up...

Ya you should have been there!

But he did go into this exact thing.. The Mag level in Adv Cal is there to give a balanace of what a coral needs to survive and balance what is in the mixture. But the Mag is used up elsewhere too, like that Kalk you use in your top off. So you are adding what you need to match your calcium in the Adv Cal but still low because what is being used up by your Kalk!

 

[justonemoretank]

Thanks for the write up those are good "cliff notes" for those that missed.
An Excellent presentation was given and it was too bad more people did not get to hear it in person. It did answer some questions for me which was much needed. My corals will be happier.
It is nice to understand the difference between Reef Buffer and Reef Builder! SeaChem makes great products and they are a local company.
Now we all know the great importance of measuring Mg and keeping the levels up so that the Ca and Alk can stay in the water and not precipitate out. :thumbs:

 

[triggerhappy8]

Tony,
I am sorry I missed you last night. I tried to make it over to you but I think you jumped out of there kind of quickly. Hopefully I will meet you at the BBQ. It is tough to meet everyone you talk to every day in an hour surprisingly.

 

[triggerhappy8]

Dang, you guys are too quick. It was also great to talk to you too Jamie. Honestly, no write up can do the meeting justice because I know I learned more than I can recall in between business calls, hehe. It will come back to me before I do something stupid hopefully (just remember ping pong balls, not beer pong!).

 

[dannybradley]

Cameron;55894 wrote: I do as after reading found out it is very hard to overdose. That said, I am suprised a bit because Adv Calcium is designed to raise Ca mainly due to the fact it has Mag in it. What are the advantages over their regular calcium product if Adv Calcium doesn't increase the mag content in the tank to a reasonable level? Hmmm... should have showed up...

Reef Complete/Adv Calcium is not designed to raise Mg or Sr. Each dose contains the utilization ratio by corals, 100:5:0.1, Ca:Mg:Sr. The greatest benefit of it is that it's a great way to raise calcium. Reef Complete is in the bottle at 160,000ppm, which is the amount of calcium that you can suspend in a liquid without it ending up on the bottom as a block of calcium.

If you're calcium is already high, you'd get better growth from your coral using Reef Calcium, which because of the formulation can only exist as a liquid. Did Brian go into the gluconate bonding of Reef Calcium at the meeting? If not, I'd be more than happy to.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

DannyBradley;56076 wrote: Reef Complete/Adv Calcium is not designed to raise Mg or Sr. Each dose contains the utilization ratio by corals, 100:5:0.1, Ca:Mg:Sr. The greatest benefit of it is that it's a great way to raise calcium. Reef Complete is in the bottle at 160,000ppm, which is the amount of calcium that you can suspend in a liquid without it ending up on the bottom as a block of calcium.

If you're calcium is already high, you'd get better growth from your coral using Reef Calcium, which because of the formulation can only exist as a liquid. Did Brian go into the gluconate bonding of Reef Calcium at the meeting? If not, I'd be more than happy to.

No he did not.... But I am sure some people would be interested to hear, unless they get confused...

I still would like to see proof that the glucose bonding of CA works. Do you have test info on it?!?

 

[triggerhappy8]

Mr. Danny,
You might be slightly caustic in your approach to responses for having 6 posts but that does not mean that you do not know encyclopedias more than I do. Actually it probably has a good chance of meaning that. I would love to hear more about reef chemistry. Especially the gluconate bonding part. Please don't take the beginning part as sarcastic; I truly just want to learn more.
-Craig

 

[dannybradley]

triggerhappy8;55671 wrote:
Part IV - Q&A
Don't remember them all but this one I remember since I didn't know it.
Are high Ca levels required for softies (ie shrooms, leathers, zoas) growth?
To some degree it helps, but iodine levels are much more important for softie growth.
<span style="color: black;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">!! :yay: :thumbs: :up: </span></span>

I'll touch on this one too. Ca is also very important to the growth in softies. How is it that a mushroom has a small stock and a wide flat disc without a skeleton for it to shape around? That's a trick question, it does.

Softies grow spicules. Microscopic bony fragments used to provide structure and support to those without true skeletons. You'll actually find spicules of different shapes and sizes in different parts of the organism to allow for different shapes.

Sponges differ somewhat, in that they use silicate to produce their spicules. I've actually seen sponge life cycle in and out based on how old/new the DI cartidge is.

 

[triggerhappy8]

Danny,
There is also a whole thread devoted to iodide vs. ca consumption in softies somewhere around here (methinks Reef Discussion). Could you possibly put something to this effect there as well?

 

[dannybradley]

I really need all my notes to go more deeply onto Reef Calcium, but I'll go into everything I remember.

Reef Complete is a gluconate bound calcium bottled at 50,000ppm. In essence, they polymerize the calcium with a basic carbohydrate to create up to 7 ion long chains of calcium.

Here's the theory I don't have the test to back up.

A coral uses one unit of energy to open the cell wall to take in an ion of calcium. The coral will use the same unit of energy to take in a 7 ion long chain of calcium ions, with the benefit of the easily metabolized carbohydrate as an energy source for growth.

Within the polymerization there are anywhere from 1 to 7 ions strung together at a time, with the single ion still having the carbohydrate attatched to it.

The counter claim is that it introduces organics into your tank.

Being that it's at a concentration of 50,000ppm, it doesn't work as well as reef complete for raising calcium, but it is good for maintaining it.

 

[dannybradley]

triggerhappy8;56090 wrote: Danny,
There is also a whole thread devoted to iodide vs. ca consumption in softies somewhere around here (methinks Reef Discussion). Could you possibly put something to this effect there as well?

Yeah, but give me a few days to think about and research that comparison.

 

[triggerhappy8]

Thanks in advance. I would love to learn as I have mostly softies, some LPS, and am hoping for a SPS or so at the BBQ.

 

[cameron]

I don't dose kalk any more. I am now dosing Adv Calcium and their Builder product. Wonder why they don't kick a bit more mag in there and make it a complete solution?

I get some of the Reef Calcium advantages but the Seachem guy told me that the polygluconate bonding process was so that as the carbohydrate breaks down and release the calcium in an almost time release manner. He didn't mention the ionic chains. Anyway, a couple problems arise from this method of calcium dosing. The biggest is that it is very hard to test and get an accurate reading with this stuff in the tank. Test kits seem to get real strange results that bounce all over the place. Also I am looking to keep my dosing to two part as much as possible and I prefer the Adv Calcium as I can raise or lower my calcium levels with it unlike Reef Calcium. I may still switch to two part (which is really three part), but for now I have been real happy with Seachem products and dosing their stuff isn't breaking the bank.

Too bad I can't get away without the mag dosing... guess I will still have a two week dousing of the stuff in my tank.

 

[triggerhappy8]

Cameron;56131 wrote: Wonder why they don't kick a bit more mag in there and make it a complete solution?

He actually addressed this in the Q&A. Apparently if you add more magnesium than they do then it begins to have averse reactions and remove some of the other stuff that you really want. In other words, you can't have an all in one.

 

[cameron]

Not looking for an all in one, but an all in two would be nice.

 

[tsciarini]

triggerhappy8;56071 wrote: Tony,
I am sorry I missed you last night. I tried to make it over to you but I think you jumped out of there kind of quickly. Hopefully I will meet you at the BBQ. It is tough to meet everyone you talk to every day in an hour surprisingly.

jumped out of there kind of quickly? I didnt leave until 10:30! lol
I'm always one of the last people to leave...

 

[triggerhappy8]

I stayed until around 9:45. I had to get home though. I had a girlfriend waiting on me to get done with my "fish stuff". I am sure I will see you at the BBQ.