coral/Ick/Dip?

[bruce 1]

I bought some Nice Zoas yesterday, I have them still in the bags floating in my sump. The tank they came from, I think had Ick in it. I have coral RX. What would be my best method to make sure they do not have any Ick on them? Will the Rx kill ick if it is there?
Thank you Bruce

 

[ralph atl]

QT them for 6 weeks.....

 

[rhyerob]

It is my understanding that ich does not affect corals...only fish. Coral and fish don't share the same biology, and coral are therefore not a host for ich.

On a side note...I believe just about everyone has ich. You have a few meticulous people that ensure they don't get it, but all in all, everyone has it. Ich breakouts are generally an indicator that something is stressing out your fish (chemically, thermally, nutritionally, psychologically, or the inherent variability that comes with this hobby) and causes what equates (in my mind) to the flu. Left unchecked, it can be fatal...treated, easy to overcome.

 

[grouper therapy]

Rhyerob;824740 wrote: It is my understanding that ich does not affect corals...only fish. Coral and fish don't share the same biology, and coral are therefore not a host for ich.

On a side note...I believe just about everyone has ich. You have a few meticulous people that ensure they don't get it, but all in all, everyone has it. Ich breakouts are generally an indicator that something is stressing out your fish (chemically, thermally, nutritionally, psychologically, or the inherent variability that comes with this hobby) and causes what equates (in my mind) to the flu. Left unchecked, it can be fatal...treated, easy to overcome.

:huh:Ich does not need a host to transfer. Why do you "believe " that everyone has ich?

 

[ralph atl]

Rhyerob;824740 wrote: It is my understanding that ich does not affect corals...only fish. Coral and fish don't share the same biology, and coral are therefore not a host for ich.

On a side note...I believe just about everyone has ich. You have a few meticulous people that ensure they don't get it, but all in all, everyone has it. Ich breakouts are generally an indicator that something is stressing out your fish (chemically, thermally, nutritionally, psychologically, or the inherent variability that comes with this hobby) and causes what equates (in my mind) to the flu. Left unchecked, it can be fatal...treated, easy to overcome.

this is just not true. ICH must be introduced to your tank, and if destroyed & all inhabitants are ICK free, your tank won't have it.

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/ich.html">http://www.chucksaddiction.com/ich.html</a>

^^^^^^this is good info on life cycle ^^^^^^


Trophont Free Swimming Stage: The parasite drops off the fish after it has grown and searches for an ideal surface to begin the tomont/reproductive stage again.
^^^maybe it can adhere to the plug of coral?^^^


[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41923&stc=1&d=1357102515" alt="" />

 

[rhyerob]

grouper therapy;824743 wrote: :huh:Ich does not need a host to transfer. Why do you "believe " that everyone has ich?

Because most are too impatient to quarantine. It lays dormant on the substrate until released into the water column, finds a host, well you know the cycle.

And I didn't think about the frag plug. But IMO what I said still stands, that's the way I see it.

 

[rhyerob]

mysterybox;824748 wrote: this is just not true. ICH must be introduced to your tank, and if destroyed & all inhabitants are ICK free, your tank won't have it.

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/ich.html">http://www.chucksaddiction.com/ich.html</a>

^^^^^^this is good info on life cycle ^^^^^^


Trophont Free Swimming Stage: The parasite drops off the fish after it has grown and searches for an ideal surface to begin the tomont/reproductive stage again.
^^^maybe it can adhere to the plug of coral?^^^


[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41923&stc=1&d=1357102515" alt="" />[/QUOTE]

I did say that there were a few meticulous folks who made sure they didn't have it. I didn't feel that I needed to explain how they prevent from introducing ich to their tank since the preceding post gave this posts original author proper advice.

So how is what I said not true? The first lines of your article states that almost all people with salt water tanks will deal with this problem. So again, in different verbiage, once introduced to the system it is always there. Your provided life cycle proves this fact and thus proves my point. I can appreciate your stance if you are a quarantine oriented reefer, but most in the hobby are not.

You did bring up a good point about the frag plug, which I had not thought about. But your lumping of my entire post as not true is in fact not true. Ich does not host on corals. That was the premise of the whole statement.

 

[silver surfer]

When an outbreak of ich occurs in a tank, why is it that some of the fish don't show signs?

 

[rhyerob]

Silver Surfer;824778 wrote: When an outbreak of ich occurs in a tank, why is it that some of the fish don't show signs?

Because they have either built up immunities, are healthier, or hardier than other fish(IOW less stressed). Just because they do not show symptoms of ich does not mean the life cycle has ended. And furthermore immunities does not=eradicated...more like carrier/survivor. Those who have had chicken pox once understand that they have immunities to the disease and are told that they shouldn't get it again. For those that do get chicken pox multiple times, the illness is more debilitating and lengthier.
The external factors (thermal, psychological, chemical, etc) that I listed also play a part in the overall health. The internal ones like life expectancy, stress levels, being predisposed to diseases, etc also bring stress issues.

We are talking about alot of variables here.

Ich presents itself when internal or external stressers decrease the immune system and allow, IMO, a sickness to proliferate that is already in most reefers systems.
Anyone is welcome to disagree with my diagnosis, but I can find no literature that has proved me wrong, and until such a time...this is what I believe.

 

[rhyerob]

Maybe heart worms are a better example than the flu or chicken pox, since heart worms are also a parasite. However I still like the analogies

 

[silver surfer]

Ok if some fish can build up immunities to ich, in theory if a new fish was introduced to the system slowly couldn't you possibly build him up to resist outbreak.

Kind of like the flue shot?

 

[grouper therapy]

Rhyerob;824777 wrote: I did say that there were a few meticulous folks who made sure they didn't have it. I didn't feel that I needed to explain how they prevent from introducing ich to their tank since the preceding post gave this posts original author proper advice.

So how is what I said not true? The first lines of your article states that almost all people with salt water tanks will deal with this problem. So again, in different verbiage, once introduced to the system it is always there. Your provided life cycle proves this fact and thus proves my point. I can appreciate your stance if you are a quarantine oriented reefer, but most in the hobby are not.

You did bring up a good point about the frag plug, which I had not thought about. But your lumping of my entire post as not true is in fact not true. Ich does not host on corals. That was the premise of the whole statement.

That is not remotely the same verbiage. It is not always there. once introduced into the system it can be removed by removing the host. It does lay dormant but not FOREVER period!! Let the tank lay fallow for the correct time and do not introduce it again and it will not be there. So what you said that it is always there is incorrect.

Edit:

Rhyerob;824805 wrote: Because they have either built up immunities, are healthier, or hardier than other fish(IOW less stressed). Just because they do not show symptoms of ich does not mean the life cycle has ended. And furthermore immunities does not=eradicated...more like carrier/survivor. Those who have had chicken pox once understand that they have immunities to the disease and are told that they shouldn't get it again. For those that do get chicken pox multiple times, the illness is more debilitating and lengthier.
The external factors (thermal, psychological, chemical, etc) that I listed also play a part in the overall health. The internal ones like life expectancy, stress levels, being predisposed to diseases, etc also bring stress issues.

We are talking about alot of variables here.

Ich presents itself when internal or external stressers decrease the immune system and allow, IMO, a sickness to proliferate that is already in most reefers systems.
Anyone is welcome to disagree with my diagnosis, but I can find no literature that has proved me wrong, and until such a time...this is what I believe.

The one above does. If it has a cycle , a time limited dormant period and cannot find a host please tell me how it survives in the system and last forever.

 

[ralph atl]

:up:

 

[rhyerob]

Silver Surfer;824828 wrote: Ok if some fish can build up immunities to ich, in theory if a new fish was introduced to the system slowly couldn't you possibly build him up to resist outbreak.

Kind of like the flue shot?

More like a trial by fire!

Ich exists in the oceans...it has for longer than humans have walked the earth. Yet it hasn't eradicated all of the fishes in the ocean. Why?

The answer is simple...food source. The function of a parasite is NOT to kill the host...it is to keep it alive. If a parasite's function was to kill everything it came into contact with then there would be nothing to keep the parasite itself alive. In fact, if parasites killed their hosts the earth would be non existent.

Fishes in the ocean have a steadier, healthier environment. Therefore, their ability to fight off ich (while still in the ocean) is greatly increased.

Now to answer your question. A healthy fish is going to resist an outbreak on its own.

A new fish is not Healthy. It is stressed. It has been removed from what it called home, put into a bag, shaken to all hell and back, and then dropped into a new strange place. EVERYTHING about it's new environment is different. Its mental and physical states are compromised.

With its immune system down the parasite continues on its path as normal. The changing variable being its hosts well being. This allows the parasite to increase its population vs the otherwise healthy specimen. It makes the fish sick...and usually something else kills the fish. Think AIDS...AIDS patients usually die from pneumonia, colds, the flu, etc. The compromised immune system allows for secondary infections, and eventually the fish succumbs.

This is as I see it. Again, there is enough info to support my theory as well as refute it.

Back to your earlier question...Read host susceptibility on this article. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php">http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php</a>
The author has seen less than one handful of all regal tangs he's come into contact with to be free of ich. How is it that they all have managed to survive even long enough for him to witness this if ich is not normal?

Bruce sorry for hijacking your thread. Were you able to quarantine? If so 35-40 days is sufficient as you were informed earlier.

 

[grouper therapy]

Ok So if I have a fishless aquarium that was set up with rodi based saltwater and dry sand/rock it should not have ich Correct?. But if I introduce the ich parasite to that same system say via water/ coral from an infected aquarium it will always have ich? Even with out a host? Even 10 years later I introduce a fish free of the parasite to that system it will now contract the parasite. So that parasite has been 1. Sitting there dormant for 10 years and now senses a weakened fish so it leaves that dormant cyst state and attaches to that weakened fish. or 2. It has continued to survive for 10 years as a parasite although it has absolutely nothing of which to be a parasite to and just manages to magically survive some how. BTW No one is denying that weakened fish are more susceptible to ich or any other disease for that matter. That holds true for most living things.

 

[rhyerob]

grouper therapy;824850 wrote: That is not remotely the same verbiage. It is not always there. once introduced into the system it can be removed by removing the host. It does lay dormant but not FOREVER period!! Let the tank lay fallow for the correct time and do not introduce it again and it will not be there. So what you said that it is always there is incorrect.

Edit: [/B] The one above does. If it has a cycle , a time limited dormant period and cannot find a host please tell me how it survives in the system and last forever.

Grouper, I've read some of your posts and respect your opinion (blunt and to the point, even though it seems like sometimes you're trying to start a riot!)...so believe me when tell you I mean no disrespect. But not only are you not reading what I've said, but you are also putting words into my mouth.

I never claimed you cannot eradicate ich. I mentioned quarantining as a method..."the meticulous few" I believe. I also said most people don't have the patience or a quarantine tank. So once introduced, most people cannot remove the host and allow the tank to go fallow. Without doing so the life cycle of ich continues. This is why it's called a cycle.

I never said that it lies dormant "FOREVER". I said its always there. I did not know that I needed to say in one of four stages. I understand the life cycle just fine. I think that's where you're losing what I'm saying and why I believe as I do. Life cycles do not end without the interference of external forces. So now again, since most people do not have a quarantine tank, once introduced, it is always there.

To supplement my point, how many stores quarantine everything they get? A few...but not many. How many Internet sellers quarantine everything the get? I'd venture to say that most who make a wholesale order put it up for sale the second they get their shipment. If all the sellers aren't doing it, what makes you think that the average hobbyist is gonna. It's like shaking hands with a girl with a handful of glitter. The next person you shake hands with will get the "herpes of craft supplies" on their hand too.

If you still refuse to believe me, go to the store find a fish with ich. Put it in a tank. Don't medicate. Feed it three small healthy meals a day. If it lives wait a couple months...hell wait two years. When you're ready, move it to a tank with new sand, rocks, and water, none of the old system stuff. Stress it out on propose when you move it. Then I want you to message me when it gets ich again...with a check ready for the Nanny Nanny Boo Boo/I Told You So Foundation!

 

[rhyerob]

I will state that saying its always there is a tad confusing...but I did mention that ich needs a host to survive and that only fish are its hosts earlier

 

[grouper therapy]

Rhyerob;824777 wrote: I did say that there were a few meticulous folks who made sure they didn't have it. I didn't feel that I needed to explain how they prevent from introducing ich to their tank since the preceding post gave this posts original author proper advice.

So how is what I said not true? The first lines of your article states that almost all people with salt water tanks will deal with this problem. So again, in different verbiage, <u>once introduced to the system it is always there.</u> Your provided life cycle proves this fact and thus proves my point. I can appreciate your stance if you are a quarantine oriented reefer, but most in the hobby are not.

You did bring up a good point about the frag plug, which I had not thought about. But your lumping of my entire post as not true is in fact not true. Ich does not host on corals. That was the premise of the whole statement.

No worries at all. I took the above as definitive statement. My bad.:thumbs: I hope you never take my discussion as trying to incite a riot lol. I have no problems offering opposing views in the form of direct questions. My wife said I should have been an attorney from that perspective. If you were to discuss these subjects with me in person you would see the difference in the way they come across. I am not good at relaying my tone of voice or personality(shut up Rich) in the written word.

 

[rhyerob]

Grouper. You have made me see the folly of my...no I'm just kidding I still believe what I said.
However I know you know this, but just so you know I know this=), there is no way for the cycle to continue in a fish less tank.
I think another reason for our communication break down is every time I finish one post you've already responded to the last! Typing on a phone takes to long.

 

[grouper therapy]

Rhyerob;824892 wrote: Grouper. You have made me see the folly of my...no I'm just kidding I still believe what I said.
However I know you know this, but just so you know I know this=), there is no way for the cycle to continue in a fish less tank.
I think another reason for our communication break down is every time I finish one post you've already responded to the last! Typing on a phone takes to long.

No doubt brother!! My wife dies laughing at me typing on a regular keyboard:lol2: She is in the court reporting business though so not really fair.