coral's colors

brianjfinn;414209 wrote: It's people like Ichthyoid that are the reason why I love this site so much. I'm such a nerd about the biology and chemistry and how everything works. I may not understand all of it, but I sure love learning about it. And a major THANK YOU to all the people that take time out of their day to learn and then share with everyone else. Thanks, Ichthyoid!
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Thanks B-
We ALL stand on the shoulders of giants! I am happy to share what others have shared with me. I was blessed (or cursed, depending on your perspective;) with an insatiable curiosity for learning how this universe works, and I have a real soft spot for the oceans. My prize is learning from everyone else!
 
I'm right there with you, Ich. It's funny, when I was in high school and college, I had no interest in what I was learning, but now that I'm out in the real world, I can't soak in enough. My wife laughs at me and says I'm obsessive, and I can be. I figure if I'm going to do something, I want to learn everything I can about it and do it right, or at least give it my best try. Not out of a desire to "be the best," but just because I really enjoy learning something new. I'm real big on self-enrichment and investment in the mind. If you're not active in something, then you're a passive participant in life. And it doesn't have to be something that you necessarily have to study, but anything that's challenging. Any sort of hobby, sport, or mental/physical exercise that is engaging. I know I sound like a total dork, but it really does bleed over into other areas of a person's life. I think it's what my generation is really lacking.
 
grouper therapy;414223 wrote: Is the saturation point obtained from intense lighting or the duration of the lighting? Or both and how would one determine this based on our different set up? PAR?
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Yes Grouper, you are right on the mark. It IS both intensity (technically known as 'irradiance') AND the duration. Think of it this way...

you have sand (units of light called 'photons')
you have a shovel (pigments like chlorophyll, etc.)
you have a bucket (the organism's photosystem)

You begin using the shovel to move the sand into the bucket.
The shovel can only hold so much sand per scoop/unit time (the light saturation point)
The bucket can only be filled once per day, or it will be damaged (the point of photoinhibition)

Most organism's are not this simple, and have mechanisms in place to prevent damage, but for illustration I have left that out.

You may use more light for less time, or
Less light for a longer time.

There is current research ongoing to determine if either really matters to organisms. We already know that the physics couldn't care less!

The same way that 2x3=6,
and that 3x2=6, also

PAR (photosythetically active radiation)=
micro moles of photons per square meter per second

A photon in physics is really like a very high energy electron
A 'mole' is 6.02 x 10 to the 23rd power ( a VERY huge number!)
For illustration one mole of water weighs 18 grams and has this many water molecules in it, if that helps.
A square meter is, of course, a little bigger than a square yard

As Carl Sagan would have said, we have 'billions and billions' of photons raining down on our poor little corals every second!
 
blu_devl_06;414271 wrote: Nice break down.....I have a buddy that lives down the street, he has a dark room, we are going to set up a frag tank in the dark room and runit on 6/2, and see what happens, that would give us 3 light cycles per day, theoretically 3x growth....I will make a separate post when it comes time.:up:
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Great idea Blu! This could become a 'classic experiment', if done correctly. I am very serious about that. I worked in research myself for 13 years, and can tell you that if you could set up say (at least) 5-6 frag tanks, you could gather enough data points (ie-replications) for the scientific community to take your results seriously. I personally prefer at least 20 replications for statistical resons, but unless you have better funding than most of us do, that may not be feasible. In any case let me/us know. Thanks, and good luck!
 
Got it.. Is there data collected as to how long the saturation last since it obviously dissipates eventually . And what determines that rate? My reason for asking is if it dissipates lets say in an hour would it be reasonable to say that another saturation immediately following the dissipation would be beneficial?
 
Great thread guys. I'm trying to learn as much as I can right now on saturation. I just ordered light movers for my new setup. And am going to be playing around with photoperiods and exposure times. We shall see what I find out. The information I'm getting is spotty and conflicting. Just my kind of challenge LOL.
 
Corals that saturate photosynthetically (or say corn, for that matter) simply can't utilize any more of the light energy per unit time and use 'quenching mechanisms' (sometimes pigments are used for this too) to shed the excess energy. Plants generally don't 'store' light but use it to produce ATP (adenosine triphosphate), which is the universal energy molecule in nature. Plants unable to utilize this within a short time may convert it into another molecule like an oil, starch, fat, etc. for longer periods. Later they can 'burn' that molecule (ie-convert it back into energy, remember Einstein has to get his plug here too).
energy > mass > energy

What is important in your experiment is:
1) to not reach photoinhibition irradiance levels (more than about 500-600 watts per square meter if using halides or t-5's, as measured at the bottom of the tank/where the coral actually is, assuming you use a sps coral, others will be lower). I doubt you are likely to achieve that.
2) to be very consistent. Use timers, preferably with battery back-ups built in, so if power fails you still get 6/2 cycle.
3) Use a 'contol' frag tank with an 18/6 cycle (same equivalent daily photoperiod) for comparison, 'the norm'.
4) use a reliable/reproducible method for evaluating/measuring growth (think carefully about this), or use an 'accepted method' for doing so.
5) use multiples of the same species and approximate size of corals (if you use small one's you can get more data points, which is very good!)
6) keep all other parameters (ie-water, nutrition, temp, etc., etc.) very constant.
7) keep meticulous records of all data/consistently. Good research is hard work!
8) calibrate all tests/instrumentation to accepted standards before hand, and re-check them afterward.

Still want to do this?....

....Great, I thought so!
 
Folks, this has been absolutely wonderful. The most stimulating exchange on ANY subject I may have ever discussed (or equally so), but my brain hurts. I need to go to my bed and let my photosystem recover :confused2:, so it can get stimulated again in the morning (which rapidly approaches). I hope we can continue this later.
 
Hi all
I just found this thread, & have enjoyed reading all the good info.

I know the conversation has centered around lighting, but the original question
was about colors in corals. I used to think corals got nearly all there sustenance from light. Once when trying to starve some algae, I scrubbed nutrients out of the water (via carbon dosing & zeo reactor) so much that my corals started to fade. When I posted this same question about colors the responses where (since light & water quality was good) they're hungry.
Sure enough when I started feeding them corols started coming back.

So should feeding corals be part of this conversation, or is lighting enough of
a topic for one thread?
 
I actually had started a thread about that - while lighting is important, it is not the only source for good coral growth/color.
 
Wow! Glad I asked this question! You guys are great. Fullmonti....how often do you feed and with what? I use phyto about twice a week...three caps of each bottle. I have a 140 gallon mixed reef with a good deal of coral and one clam. Should I feed more?
 
fullmonti;414455 wrote: Hi all
I just found this thread, & have enjoyed reading all the good info.

I know the conversation has centered around lighting, but the original question
was about colors in corals. I used to think corals got nearly all there sustenance from light. Once when trying to starve some algae, I scrubbed nutrients out of the water (via carbon dosing & zeo reactor) so much that my corals started to fade. When I posted this same question about colors the responses where (since light & water quality was good) they're hungry.
Sure enough when I started feeding them corols started coming back.

So should feeding corals be part of this conversation, or is lighting enough of
a topic for one thread?
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The short answer seems to be that photosynthetic corals do get ~90+% of their nutritional requirements from zooxanthellae/photosynthesis. I have not found any studies yet (today) that address the question of coral color DIRECTLY from food organisms, but my gut tells me yes/maybe. Why?

There are (for example) lots of carotenoid pigments available in plankton. Many other organisms in nature absorb such pigments and incorporate them in their bodies. Why would corals be different and reinvent the wheel, energetically speaking.

There is evidence that most of the bright/flourescent colors/pigments come from exposure to higher energy wavelengths of light. Part of this is a coral sunscreen mechanism, and part nutritionally based. In any case both are advantages.

Also, nutritionally corals seem to depend on food organisms for at least some of their nutritional requirement. Specifically, there is evidence that phosphorous may not be absorbable directly from water (or if possible, this pathway is undesireable for the coral). I personally think there needs to be more work on the phosphorous thing, specifically. Also, there is some evidence to support, and several theories for, fish living in symbiosis with certain species of stony corals. For example Acroporas and damsels, where the damsel releases ammonia which is partly utilized by the corals/zooxanthellae, and the damsel receives protection within the coral structure from predators.

Below are some interesting links for enjoyment. Hope this helps.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2167&aid=2693">http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2167&aid=2693</a>
A good general overview, which is based on some of the heavyweight marine/reef writers perspectives.

[IMG]http://www.nova.edu/ncri/11icrs/abstract_files/icrs2008-000138.pdf">http://www.nova.edu/ncri/11icrs/abstract_files/icrs2008-000138.pdf</a>
Very brief but informative description of some of the issues/mechanisms.

[IMG]http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0505/sights_n_sounds/index.html">http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0505/sights_n_sounds/index.html</a>
A really cool (IMO) video on color in the coral reef environment.

[IMG]http://www.3reef.com/forums/coral-health/zooxanthellae-coral-color-55032.html">http://www.3reef.com/forums/coral-health/zooxanthellae-coral-color-55032.html</a>
A great/brief thread from 3Reef. Included are links to much of Dana Riddle's work on this subject. Strap up and hang on!
 
dawgdude;414493 wrote: Like others have said, most of their energy comes from light however they do need to have nutrients in the water to feed the zooxanthella. However without the spike in the actinic spectrum of the light, you still wont get the right colors from your corals and they will be mostly greens and browns. IMO heavy skimming and water changes are the best ways to battle algae while maintaining a normal feeding schedule.

On a side not I have noticed a correlation between dosing phyto and excess phos and nitrates.
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The (coral) farmer speaks, and the wise man listens!

Thanks for those pearls Dawg.
 
Folks:

Check out what this guy, who has the TOM at Reef 2 Reef, says about feeding his corals..."Nothing". Tank looks great though.

index.php
 
Dawg - you got ahead of me with that. When you say "feeds the tank" what do you mean? Also, do you have any clams? If so, how do you feed them if you don't use phyto?
 
i run 7 lamp t5 with no mh. so im on for 10 . 5 hours a day. given... not all of that time has the daylight lamps on.

b
 
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