egg crate hair algae

Water was tested clean before adding egg crate, the user added a large amount of egg crate, sealed the container, with a small powerhead inside, tested every week. At two weeks the phosphate was present enough to be tested. It's not really an argument wether or not it leeches phosphates, its a fact. (The type of eggcrate temp of water, type or RODI water, etc etc plays a role, however this DOES prove that phosphates can be leeched.) He did go on to state that it is not continuous the phosphates do eventually stop leeching.
 
What kind of container was it?
Was it plastic?
Could phosphates have leeched from it?
What were the testing methods?
Are we certain phosphates are found in the polymers that make up egg crate?
What (and to me, this is the biggie) exactly were the natural forces acting on the egg crate for the phosphates to be leeched?
Would submersion in saltwater leech phosphate from any plastic?
Were these phosphates in gaseous or a solid form?
Was an experiment AND control group observed?

Scientific studies are done in a way that could answer most of those question if not all, as well as others.

did this one
 
Dakota9;592721 wrote: If saltwater breaks down plastics, then the Great Pacific Garbage Patch wouldn't exist, my Tunze Skimmer would be a detriment to my tank, and brute containers wouldn't be the standard for mixing make up water.


wow...


you still don't get it...


egg crate (as you call it) is actually diffraction grating that's used in light fixtures to prevent spillover of the light..

I'm not saying that it will breakdown in a month, just that plastics are all constructed/engineered for a specific purpose (they have additives that support them solely in that purpose) and the purpose that we use this particular plastic product for is NOT its intended use.. it's about as far away from its intended use as we can put it.. so it will be more susceptible to breaking down in OUR application than in its intended application (for which it was NOT devised).

I don't know why it has to be an argument. you made a statement that was inaccurate and you can't live with the fact that you're not right. What you BELIEVE has no bearing on the facts..
 
Rbredding;592735 wrote: wow...


you still don't get it...


egg crate (as you call it) is actually diffraction grating that's used in light fixtures to prevent spillover of the light..

I'm not saying that it will breakdown in a month, just that plastics are all constructed/engineered for a specific purpose (they have additives that support them solely in that purpose) and the purpose that we use this particular plastic product for is NOT its intended use.. it's about as far away from its intended use as we can put it.. so it will be more susceptible to breaking down in OUR application than in its intended application (for which it was NOT devised).

I don't know why it has to be an argument. you made a statement that was inaccurate and you can't live with the fact that you're not right. What you BELIEVE has no bearing on the facts..

Yeah, what he said.
 
Dakota9;592695 said:
Yeah, in the case of plastic, a couple hundred years........


PVC is known to leach chlorine case over time, but at such a slow rate, it would be undetectable.

It's been suggested that flexible resins can leech chemicals (in a gaseous state) due to the use of plasticizers. In the end, this has been proven and dis-proven on both sides of the argument, but never has ridged plastics been in question regarding leeching anything unless heat was a factor in the argument.


Absolutely, if you soaked eggcrate in water for a hundred years, you might see all sorts of stuff starting to build up in the water. Over a few weeks time? Not possible. If it were, our environment would be too toxic to breathe by now...... Water approximately room temperature is not the right conditions to break down plastics.

As far as polybutylene pipe goes. It didn't fail because it degraded, it failed because of the stress of crimping the the unions. My best friends of 25 years had to have their house replumbed inside and out because of polybutylene pipe. This was explained to them in the class action suit that eventually helped financially offset their loss....[/QUOTE]

The 'rest of the story'... (hope this is interesting)

Actually, that is what the lawyers for Shell claimed. It's also what the Court decided to use as the test for who was to be awarded damages.

Polybutylene has what is known in Organic Chemistry as a tertiary carbon. These carbons can form carbo-cations (+ ion). In the case of the polybutylene being used for water transport, the developers apparently overlooked a basic tenant of Organic Chemistry. In the presence of a strong anion (- ion) such as Chlorine, the above carbo-cation is subject to attack. The negative chlorine ions (-) present in municiple water attacked the carbo-cations (+) in the polybutylene polymer. The result was that the polymer chains began to unzip. The formal term is free radical depolymerization. As there were literally millions of the polymer molecules, it took a while. They failed nevertheless. This reaction took place in the water lines made from polybutylene, and happened more frquently/faster in the 'hot' water lines than in the cold (second order kinetics). This was a second clue.

We have all seen this happen when plastic sheet is left out in the sun. Or when those old vinyl tops and plastic trim on cars craze/crack and fall apart. In those cases it's due to the UV from sunlight, but it is the same chemical mechanism.

In order to receive a claim on the polybutylene pipe, you had to have a specific type of 'crimp' at the connections. In the end, I had to replumb my house. I never got a settlement, because the 'wrong' type crimps were not present. I had multiple failures, none of which was anywhere near a connection/crimp. I doubted that I would have been successful on my own suing Shell, as they could outspend me a million $$ to my 1. So, I just took care of it for $1,600. The lawyers on both sides all got richer. Shell never admitted any wrong doing.

Nothing really is 'inert'. Some things just take longer to break down. Because we only live a few decades we like to believe some things will never change. One thing I fear will not change is some people/companies not standing by their products/actions and doing the 'right' thing when they are wrong.

Doing the 'right' thing, used to be a given. What changed?

FWIW- I set the curve in Organic Chemistry class, and worked for years in polymer research.
 
Rbredding;592735 wrote: wow...


you still don't get it...


egg crate (as you call it) is actually diffraction grating that's used in light fixtures to prevent spillover of the light..

I'm not saying that it will breakdown in a month, just that plastics are all constructed/engineered for a specific purpose (they have additives that support them solely in that purpose) and the purpose that we use this particular plastic product for is NOT its intended use.. it's about as far away from its intended use as we can put it.. so it will be more susceptible to breaking down in OUR application than in its intended application (for which it was NOT devised).

I don't know why it has to be an argument. you made a statement that was inaccurate and you can't live with the fact that you're not right. What you BELIEVE has no bearing on the facts..



If you honestly believe egg crate leeches phosphate, then believe it.

Honestly, I don't care.......

It doesn't, it can't, not in those conditions.....
 
Gentlemen,

It is entirely plausible that a 'mold release' agent was applied to the metal mold that the polystyrene 'eggcrate' was molded in. It is fairly common that such mold relese chemical compositions contain among other things, also phosphate in a variety of forms. Please see this page that I Googled:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=mold+release+phosphate&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai">mold release phosphate - Google Search</a>=

When the eggcrate was removed from the mold, it could/may have carried some of the mold release agent with it. Thus the phosphate would be on the surface of the eggcrate. If so, this would also explain the eventual end to the algae growth, and/or detection of phosphate in the water.

It is also possible that plasticisers may be in the polymer itself. If so, the leaching from the surface could happen as well. As for coming out of the interior of the plastic, I think that far less likely.

FWIW- mold release agents keep the plastic from sticking to the mold and help speed up production.
 
Amici;592800 wrote: I think the phosphates they leach along with that pretty white color they end up being a algae magnet.

For some reason, my black eggcrate racks attract algae more than the white. No clue why, but I guess maybe it is a different material.
 
and who here didn't have coralline show up on their locline or powerheads before it showed up on the glass?
 
Amici;592805 wrote: Wow I have actually had the opposite luck. The black still grew it but not nearly as fast. Did you rinse yours? Mine was in another tank for about 2 years so it could be it was more "cured"?

Possibly. Mine was cut from a full sheet, washed in RO and put in use. However, it still wins the algae race after 9 months or so in use.
 
renoeb;592654 wrote:
... I also read that vitamin c can kill hair algae?

It worked wonders for my GHA problem.
showpost.php
 
hey toe, is there any LFS that carry the powder? I found the liquid but noticed it is ascorbic acid.
Or do you maybe have some I could get from you?
 
renoeb;592850 wrote: hey toe, is there any LFS that carry the powder? I found the liquid but noticed it is ascorbic acid.
Or do you maybe have some I could get from you?

No, you want sodium ascorbate powder, *not* ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid will wreck your pH (note the word "acid").

I found it locally at Life Grocery in Marietta. I have plenty if you want some to try. PM me to work out details.
 
Good Call Bill,

An anti-mold agent is feasible, that would certainly go along way to explain higher phosphate levels blamed on a product that can't leech phosphates.

Plasticisers are typically used to make such resins as PVC more flexible (like the difference between ridged white PVC plumbing pipe and the clear or opaque poly-vinyl tubing used on canister filters). Eggcrate tends to be so brittle, I'd be very surprised to find plasticisers used in that material.

Thanks Bill,






ichthyoid;592796 wrote: Gentlemen,

It is entirely plausible that a 'mold release' agent was applied to the metal mold that the polystyrene 'eggcrate' was molded in. It is fairly common that such mold relese chemical compositions contain among other things, also phosphate in a variety of forms. Please see this page that I Googled:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=mold+release+phosphate&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai">mold release phosphate - Google Search</a>=

When the eggcrate was removed from the mold, it could/may have carried some of the mold release agent with it. Thus the phosphate would be on the surface of the eggcrate. If so, this would also explain the eventual end to the algae growth, and/or detection of phosphate in the water.

It is also possible that plasticisers may be in the polymer itself. If so, the leaching from the surface could happen as well. As for coming out of the interior of the plastic, I think that far less likely.

FWIW- mold release agents keep the plastic from sticking to the mold and help speed up production.[/QUOTE]
 
BTW Dak, the 5 gal. totes have been very useful during my time w/o my DI system running. So again, my thanks! Happy holidays. -Bill

(it has been good for Jenn also, for selling me water :up: )
 
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