Fish in tanks. A philosophical debate.

[pamelahaley]

The thought I'm surprised not to have considered before. Fish aren't considered intelligent but, after observing them, you may feel differently. Think how a fisherman thinks of a fish vs that you think. Fish in tanks are often kept in singles depending on tank size and breeds. Some people purchase for pairs and schools.

Do you think the fish displays a noticeable psychological difference if it has never seen one of its own or is removed from wild to tank. Do you think not having the option to breed or, not being able to school effects them?

I recall having a maroon clown fish for several years. I noticed a definite difference in it's behavior and seeming more at "ease" when it had the proper anemone. Noticeably agitated when without after having had one. I had to go through a few anemones... I really wanted a GBT but, lost 2 to the filter and returned one more to the store before it met the same fate. Ended up with a condy that lived until I gave them to a bigger home elsewhere.

 

[darcurr]

I don't see there being any difference in thought between fishermen and aquarists. Both catch fish to fill a want. We want them to observe, fisherman to eat them. Both equally deprive the fish of a "normal" life. Of course, my opinion with fish in aquariums is that while most are denied the opportunnity to breed, they generally have a good quality of life, proper feedings and most important, a lack of predators.

 

[project1004]

darcurr;642187 wrote: I don't see there being any difference in thought between fishermen and aquarists. Both catch fish to fill a want. We want them to observe, fisherman to eat them. Both equally deprive the fish of a "normal" life. Of course, my opinion with fish in aquariums is that while most are denied the opportunnity to breed, they generally have a good quality of life, proper feedings and most important, a lack of predators.

wOw.... :yay::thumbs:

 

[enderg60]

 

[mapleredta]

EnderG60;642195 wrote: http://s467.photobucket.com/albums/rr35/arcadefire325/th_simpsons.gif?t=1303259594" alt="" />[/QUOTE]
Hahaha

 

[reeferman]

^classic!hahaha

 

[pamelahaley]

I guess the only difference I considered in aquarists vs. fisherman is, the fisherman looks at them as food. I mean, unless you had a 300 gal and a nice sized grouper, you probably wouldn't consider your fish as food. Would you be too attached to eat it even if he was starting to show age?

We do deny them breeding but, we don't keep them safe from predators. On that perspective, we are the predators. They may be alive in our tanks but, as far as the natural order is concerned, they may as well be fish food.

Edit: Quality of life is great for the ones who end up in a good aquarist's hands but, plenty meet death in tanks as well... whether it be a tank crash or an uneducated pairing of sea life.

 

[pamelahaley]

When you think of something as food, you try not to develop any attachment. Fisherman catch fish in nets by the thousands and dump them into a tank where they writhe in their own waste or onto ice to slowly suffocate. People who work on industrial farms herd cows, pigs, chickens etc by the hundred into slaughter houses, prodding them with electricity and brutal murder...

On the other side, a farmer with his own land, keeps a few cows for milk and meat when it's lived thoroughly probably has a different attitude or attachment to the animal. I know it's a jump from cows to fish based on level of domestication over time. Cow's and other live stock aren't often kept in singles.


On fish, I jump back to quality of life. Endless rock and hiding places in billions of gallons to a tiny 12 gallon tank. I've been through the trolling and seen others trolled... I once had a blue hippo in a 50 gal. Blue hippos are said to swim so much in a day. I doubt any tank over 75 gal is still enough for them.

 

[darcurr]

First, I suppose you are right about quality of life, in that many do die from improper care. However, I don't think the fish feel uncomfortable in our presence, especially after they associate us with food. Your fish come to the glass we you come close, right? Your point is valid though. As far as the natural order, we might as well have eaten them, no real difference. On your second point, I'm not sure what I would do. I enjoy eating fish as much as the next guy. However, I've never kept fish that are considered anything but ornamental. On the size of an aquarium, I think it's irresponsible to keep fish in an inappropriate environment. It all goes back to quality of life. The neon goby I have is perfectly content in a 20l. I've caught them in the wild simply because they will not venture far from the coral (porities usually) the live in/on. I don't keep tangs for the very reason you state. If I had another 100g+, I'd get another surgeon fish or some other tang. There are fish comfortable in a 12g tank, the list is just much shorter than a 100g tank.

Just as a point, meat cows aren't kept till old age. They are generally slaughtered in their prime (more weight).

 

[pamelahaley]

Meat cows on a small farm are kept til a prime they reach in reasonable time. Meat cows on industrial farm are injected with hormones and steroids and fed a mix to make them reach weight at an excelerated rate. I guess it's better their lives are shorter for how they are treated.

I suppose my argument there is for the difference in quality of life based on who "dominates" them.

I could counter this into hunting. I respect the hunter who shoots a buck to feed his family for the year. I deplore the hunter who baits the ground and uses a high power rifle with scope up in a treehouse and kills everything that walks by for numbers and the trophy... of course there can't be many hunters like that.

 

[grouper therapy]

Pamelahaley;642411 wrote: When you think of something as food, you try not to develop any attachment. Fisherman catch fish in nets by the thousands and dump them into a tank where they writhe in their own waste or onto ice to slowly suffocate. People who work on industrial farms herd cows, pigs, chickens etc by the hundred into slaughter houses, prodding them with electricity and brutal murder...

On the other side, a farmer with his own land, keeps a few cows for milk and meat when it's lived thoroughly probably has a different attitude or attachment to the animal. I know it's a jump from cows to fish based on level of domestication over time. Cow's and other live stock aren't often kept in singles.


On fish, I jump back to quality of life. Endless rock and hiding places in billions of gallons to a tiny 12 gallon tank. I've been through the trolling and seen others trolled... I once had a blue hippo in a 50 gal. Blue hippos are said to swim so much in a day. I doubt any tank over 75 gal is still enough for them.

Do you think that he minds turning around and going back to the other end or perhaps he gets tired of the view? I'm just trying to understand how one reasons that the fish knows the difference in a 4' tank and a 6' tank. If he does do you think after 40,000 trips he cares about an additional 24" of tank? If you were locked up in a a 40' room or a 20' room how much better would you feel? Just trying to reason on it instead of how we feel.

 

[rbredding]

I think that someone's over thinking something that doesn't require very much thinking..

 

[pamelahaley]

grouper therapy;642493 wrote: [/B] Do you think that he minds turning around and going back to the other end or perhaps he gets tired of the view? I'm just trying to understand how one reasons that the fish knows the difference in a 4' tank and a 6' tank. If he does do you think after 40,000 trips he cares about an additional 24" of tank? If you were locked up in a a 40' room or a 20' room how much better would you feel? Just trying to reason on it instead of how we feel.

That IS the point I was making... doesn't matter how big the tank, it's not the ocean.