Fish store fish quarantine

[jennm]

For us, yes. If we get in a batch and something appears in one (or more), we treat the batch and they remain in quarantine until the full treatment is completed, and we're satisfied that the issue has been addressed.

It wouldn't be smart of us to then put potentially infected/infested fish in with others that aren't - ie from earlier arrivals that also went through the same protocol and are now in the sell system. It only takes one, to infect/infest many.

Again, I can only speak for our own procedures.

Nothing is foolproof - and anyone who says that it is, is misinformed, IMO. Protocols at the retail level mitigate the risk, but at the hobbyist level, it's still prudent for individuals to quarantine their new acquisitions. Unfortunately, most still don't, and those that do, the majority, in my experience, only start doing it after a disaster. Most folks don't want to take the time, or the investment, to take a simple precaution. Some folks are lucky and never have a problem. Others, not so much.

In my opinion, it's just common sense, as a hobbyist, to take that extra step to attempt to prevent, a preventable problem.

Jenn

 

[grouper therapy]

JennM;846030 wrote: For us, yes. If we get in a batch and something appears in one (or more), we treat the batch and they remain in quarantine until the full treatment is completed, and we're satisfied that the issue has been addressed.

It wouldn't be smart of us to then put potentially infected/infested fish in with others that aren't - ie from earlier arrivals that also went through the same protocol and are now in the sell system. It only takes one, to infect/infest many.

Again, I can only speak for our own procedures.

Nothing is foolproof - and anyone who says that it is, is misinformed, IMO. Protocols at the retail level mitigate the risk, but at the hobbyist level, it's still prudent for individuals to quarantine their new acquisitions. Unfortunately, most still don't, and those that do, the majority, in my experience, only start doing it after a disaster. Most folks don't want to take the time, or the investment, to take a simple precaution. Some folks are lucky and never have a problem. Others, not so much.

<u>In my opinion, it's just common sense, as a hobbyist, to take that extra step to attempt to prevent, a preventable problem.</u>

Jenn

Exactly!!:thumbs:

 

[jennm]

Yep, spending $50-100 to set up and maintain a quarantine system, to help safeguard potentially hundreds, or thousands invested in the display, is a no-brainer.

Most hear it as a "sales pitch" until it happens to them.

Running medications in the sell system is also something that most of us do, and many wholesalers do. However, if the fish isn't in the system long enough for medications to address a problem, it's rather moot.

Whether the fish are imported to a wholesaler, or transshipped to a retailer directly, they tend to move through the chain of custody rather quickly. Even if the exporter or importer have protocols in place, if the fish is in and out in a matter of a few days, it's not enough time. Add the stress of being bagged/boxed/shipped, that puts a lot of risk into the mix.

The nature of the wholesale chain of custody (and even retail) is to get 'em in, get 'em out. Some along the chain of custody take more care than others. So with that variable in play, it's just common sense for the consumer to take the time, because that's where the game of "hot potato" ends.

Jenn

 

[korkus]

Jenn you have been very insightful with your policy and I thank you. You sound like you would be suprised to know that some fish stores in our area(northwest ga) just release after shipping in the display tanks. I personally watched 2 do it.

To me just a simple quarantine to make sure they don't die in a few days seems reasonable. The problem is they sell out of livestock before the next shipment. So why quarantine if the market doesn't demand it? I have no idea how many of those fish go home to die. It must not be a majority or the stores would get bad reputations right? Or do people who are inexperienced just think fish live for 3 months normally.

I hear on the national boards there is this expectation of LFS quarantine for 30 days. I think in practice that is just not true. I think most regions are like ours. Is it good or bad depends on the level of quarantine. It sounds like Jenn you take the step to monitor and then treat in longer quarantine if you see issues. I think that to me is sufficient since I will quarantine aswell.

I just want to make sure that the LFS I go to is not like the pet stores that deal with puppy mills. Where you have these dogs that have terrible genetic issues because they are not breeding other lines into their dogs. My wife rescues dogs and many of them have really nasty issues 3 - 5 years old due to bad breeding habits. It is very expensive to treat these dogs later in life. Thats why many dogs get dropped off up in the woods of north Georgia.

Fish could potentially have some really bad stuff and just keeping them in the store for even a week without selling them allows the LFS to see potential problems. They can treat those fish better than I can. I am willing to pay more for fish that are verified healthy and not just appear healthy cause they are swimming in medical soup.

 

[jennm]

No, I'm not surprised. I've been in the hobby for over 25 years (in 2 countries) and in the trade here for over 12, so not much surprises me anymore.

I think expecting a 30-day quarantine along any phase of the chain of custody BEFORE the end-buyer is unrealistic. Maybe there are some that do this, but they would be the minority.

Most consumers don't ask/don't care. Most don't even ask to see a fish eat. We make sure each specimen is eating before it's put out for sale, but folks may not know that.

We used to put the arrival date on our price cards - that hasn't been done recently since we changed some of our systems (but thanks for the reminder - need to make sure that's being done again). I *can* tell anyone who asks, how long I've had a given specimen, by checking my paperwork.

Paying more: there's the rub. If people expect a store to jump through big hoops with lengthy quarantine etc., there's a cost associated with that, which WILL affect the price of the fish. How many are really and truly willing to pay for that? I know some are, but reality is, MOST aren't. The same folks that don't quarantine for themselves.

Online drop-shippers don't do that. Some etailers do take measures, but some don't.

So a business has to decide if its goal is to get 'em in, get 'em out like hot potatoes, or take some time/effort/cost to mitigate risk, or go even farther, and incur more cost, charge more... and yes, over the years I've seen shops sell right out of the box and hobbyists more than willing to buy right out of the box. And for stores that 'sell out' right away - well we have a list over our q-system for stuff that already has a buyer waiting - once we're satisfied that they're ready to go.

After nearly 11 years, I've found that the way we do it, works for us. Our DAA claims are extremely low, and we also try to make sure that the environment that the fish are going to, is suitable (we want to test your water first).

Sometimes, even when it's all done 'right', fish perish. That's reality. By taking appropriate steps before a fish is sold, reduces the problems afterward.

Similarly - the hobbyist is ultimately the last stop in the chain of custody, and the one who pays the most for the fish, so the onus is on the individual to make sure what he/she is buying, is healthy and suitable. Unfortunately, the dealer usually gets the blame if that doesn't happen.

Jenn

 

[containerman1]

Jenn,
Thanks for being one of the few who do take the time to QT and make sure the fish are looking healthy and eating before you put up for sale but I think some of the responsibility falls on the buyer ( a combination effort LFS + buyer) . I see so many people buy fish that have no clue on how to take care of them and also how to take a good look at them even before they purchase for a few signs of good health or bad. I can't tell you how many times I have been in a fish store and people walk in and say give me one of these types and one of those types and never really give the fish a good look over. Sometimes the slow fish in the group are the fish that gets caught first and the one with the issues:confused2:
I have learned the hard way just as alot of people on here to Qt my fish at home and also look at them and watch them for a bit and alot of the time you can tell pretty quick sometimes and others you can't. I started out not having a Qt and learned after a few ups and downs I needed a QT .
Also learned that having a Qt is not the same as having my big tanks. The water needs to be checked more frequently and usually in a 10 gallon or 20gal . I change 1 or 2 gallons a day to keep amonia down ( or add something to help lower it) and you usually have to add a little buffer to keep the PH and Alk in check and PATIENCE.( Pretty simple if you really think about it.

PS I still have my regal tang ( Dori) I purchased from you a good while back ( I picked her up after you brought a shipment in and had her in your QT. Thanks)
She was as big as a thumb nail and she is the size a baseball and doing great:thumbs:

JennM;846295 wrote: No, I'm not surprised. I've been in the hobby for over 25 years (in 2 countries) and in the trade here for over 12, so not much surprises me anymore.

I think expecting a 30-day quarantine along any phase of the chain of custody BEFORE the end-buyer is unrealistic. Maybe there are some that do this, but they would be the minority.

Most consumers don't ask/don't care. Most don't even ask to see a fish eat. We make sure each specimen is eating before it's put out for sale, but folks may not know that.

We used to put the arrival date on our price cards - that hasn't been done recently since we changed some of our systems (but thanks for the reminder - need to make sure that's being done again). I *can* tell anyone who asks, how long I've had a given specimen, by checking my paperwork.

Paying more: there's the rub. If people expect a store to jump through big hoops with lengthy quarantine etc., there's a cost associated with that, which WILL affect the price of the fish. How many are really and truly willing to pay for that? I know some are, but reality is, MOST aren't. The same folks that don't quarantine for themselves.

Online drop-shippers don't do that. Some etailers do take measures, but some don't.

So a business has to decide if its goal is to get 'em in, get 'em out like hot potatoes, or take some time/effort/cost to mitigate risk, or go even farther, and incur more cost, charge more... and yes, over the years I've seen shops sell right out of the box and hobbyists more than willing to buy right out of the box. And for stores that 'sell out' right away - well we have a list over our q-system for stuff that already has a buyer waiting - once we're satisfied that they're ready to go.

After nearly 11 years, I've found that the way we do it, works for us. Our DAA claims are extremely low, and we also try to make sure that the environment that the fish are going to, is suitable (we want to test your water first).

Sometimes, even when it's all done 'right', fish perish. That's reality. By taking appropriate steps before a fish is sold, reduces the problems afterward.

Similarly - the hobbyist is ultimately the last stop in the chain of custody, and the one who pays the most for the fish, so the onus is on the individual to make sure what he/she is buying, is healthy and suitable. Unfortunately, the dealer usually gets the blame if that doesn't happen.

Jenn

 

[rdnelson]

containerman1;846363 wrote: Jenn,
Thanks for being one of the few who do take the time to QT and make sure the fish are looking healthy and eating before you put up for sale but I think some of the responsibility falls on the buyer ( a combination effort LFS + buyer) . I see so many people buy fish that have no clue on how to take care of them and also how to take a good look at them even before they purchase for a few signs of good health or bad. I can't tell you how many times I have been in a fish store and people walk in and say give me one of these types and one of those types and never really give the fish a good look over. Sometimes the slow fish in the group are the fish that gets caught first and the one with the issues:confused2:
I have learned the hard way just as alot of people on here to Qt my fish at home and also look at them and watch them for a bit and alot of the time you can tell pretty quick sometimes and others you can't. I started out not having a Qt and learned after a few ups and downs I needed a QT .
Also learned that having a Qt is not the same as having my big tanks. The water needs to be checked more frequently and usually in a 10 gallon or 20gal . I change 1 or 2 gallons a day to keep amonia down ( or add something to help lower it) and you usually have to add a little buffer to keep the PH and Alk in check and PATIENCE.( Pretty simple if you really think about it.

PS I still have my regal tang ( Dori) I purchased from you a good while back ( I picked her up after you brought a shipment in and had her in your QT. Thanks)
She was as big as a thumb nail and she is the size a baseball and doing great:thumbs:

I always check her QT tanks. Put my dibs in before they ever hit the sales floor. hehehehehe

 

[rskillz]

JennM;845726 wrote:

It's a little bit like a game of "hot potato".

Jenn

Jenn is dead on about the "hot potato," notion. Unlike most Coral, fish are exposed to a multitude of issues along a very shortened supply line that could affect the buyer down the road. These issues have so far discouraged me from dealing in many fish until I have a more elaborate setup and quarantine system.

I often see "X + Y hot fish in!!!!" in my inbox from wholesalers, and what this really means is they are ready to turn and burn the fish before they have them long enough to suffer losses. They will literally sell them the next day. This seems to be a majority practice with wholesalers, they pass the losses on to the next guy. I think they find this a more profitable business strategy for them than quarantining and perhaps losing a few of the sicker fish along the way.

On that note, I know very little about fish when compared to veteran sponsors and places like SEA and Pure Reef, but I just wanted to share my concern in this area as well.

I do think we should all keep in mind the cost of quarantine for a store. While some stores operate in a demographic that supports this practice, stores are inevitably going to have to charge more when they hold a fish for longer. In this economy, PRICE is often the motivating factor for 90% of people when they make a purchase, and most will just guffaw at the prices of a month long quarantined, medicated fish.

-Ryan

 

[jennm]

Rskillz;846840 wrote: Jenn is dead on about the "hot potato," notion. Unlike most Coral, fish are exposed to a multitude of issues along a very shortened supply line that could affect the buyer down the road. These issues have so far discouraged me from dealing in many fish until I have a more elaborate setup and quarantine system.

I often see "X + Y hot fish in!!!!" in my inbox from wholesalers, and what this really means is they are ready to turn and burn the fish before they have them long enough to suffer losses. They will literally sell them the next day. This seems to be a majority practice with wholesalers, they pass the losses on to the next guy. I think they find this a more profitable business strategy for them than quarantining and perhaps losing a few of the sicker fish along the way.

On that note, I know very little about fish when compared to veteran sponsors and places like SEA and Pure Reef, but I just wanted to share my concern in this area as well.

I do think we should all keep in mind the cost of quarantine for a store. While some stores operate in a demographic that supports this practice, stores are inevitably going to have to charge more when they hold a fish for longer. In this economy, PRICE is often the motivating factor for 90% of people when they make a purchase, and most will just guffaw at the prices of a month long quarantined, medicated fish.

-Ryan

:yes: You hit it right on the head. I deal with mostly smaller suppliers (tend to get better quality, in my experience), and sometimes I'll ask what has been hanging around in their tanks for a while, if I know they run some sort of protocol. Rested, fed, treated at their end fares better, usually, at ours (and ultimately, at the consumer's).

If I notice a problem in the sell system (it happens occasionally even with precautions beforehand), I'll put that system on "hold" as well.

Jenn

 

[rdnelson]

JennM;846843 wrote: and sometimes I'll ask what has been hanging around in their tanks for a while, Jenn

So thats where that bubble algae came from???? :lol2:

 

[jennm]

Fish-wise... fish don't carry bubble algae, that I'm aware of.

 

[rdnelson]

You didn't say fish. You just said "What has been hanging in your tank." hehehehe

 

[jennm]

Doh!

 

[rskillz]

JennM;846843 wrote: and sometimes I'll ask what has been hanging around in their tanks

Jenn

That one will be going in the memory bank Jenn, thanks for sharing. Never thought about it that way, because dealing in coral is the EXACT opposite. If you ordered whats "been hanging around," you'd be in a lot of trouble

-Ryan

 

[jennm]

Not necessarily. Giving up all my secrets here... asking for a blemished coral that's good for fragging can score a deal here and there too

(You can send me a commission check).