Flow through sump/return

[db366]

So from what research I have done your flow should be slow through your sump or less than 5x. With only a 30 gallon tank that would be hard to do, using the head loss calculator there isn't really a pump out there that would hit the 150 or so that would be needed. I am thinking about going with a Mag 3 or a Rio 6 HF (350 gph). Either way it would come out to around 230 GPH.

My question is does everyone go by that? I see anything over a Mag 5 would be overkill is this pretty much the standard now or would it be better to go with a high flow sump to use the return as flow for the tank?

 

[ripped tide]

It would be hard to make those numbers work in a 30. Most people do overkill with their sump flow. what kind of sump do you have? a refugium usually runs slower than a standard sump with bio-balls

 

[db366]

I am planning on having one built within the next couple weeks. It will be a custom job but I will have a fuge. I am guess the best I am going to get is around 230 GPH which I think should be fine.

I was thinking of just grabbing a mag 3 but it uses about double the watts of the rio. Are Rios really that bad compared to Mag pumps? How about the other brands like Ocean Runner or the maxi jet pumps?

 

[ripped tide]

Rios are fine. They have a bad rep because the older models didn't have a grounding probe and burnt a few houses down. As long as you keep the impeller clean it should be fine. You can always get a ball valve and tone it down if you think the flow is too high. I personally prefer a mag drive over the rio. I haven't had any bad experiences with the rio personally, but mag drives have been around for a long time and they are pretty consistent. Maxi jets would have to be cleans A LOT. no experience with ocean runner.

Edit: Rios are fine. They have a bad rep because the older models didn't have a grounding probe and burnt a few houses down. As long as you keep the impeller clean it should be fine. You can always get a ball valve and tone it down if you think the flow is too high. I personally prefer a mag drive over the rio. I haven't had any bad experiences with the rio personally, but mag drives have been around for a long time and they are pretty consistent. Maxi jets would have to be cleans A LOT. no experience with ocean runner.

 

[grouper therapy]

db366;626910 wrote: So from what research I have done your flow should be slow through your sump or less than 5x. With only a 30 gallon tank that would be hard to do, using the head loss calculator there isn't really a pump out there that would hit the 150 or so that would be needed. I am thinking about going with a Mag 3 or a Rio 6 HF (350 gph). Either way it would come out to around 230 GPH.
standard now
My question is does everyone go by that? I see anything over a Mag 5 would be overkill is this pretty much the or would it be better to go with a high flow sump to use the return as flow for the tank?

No they do not. In that research did was it explained why the flow should be that amount?
Quite One or Eheim pumps or both great little pumps .I have had better service from the Eheims. Like was mentioned if for some reason the pump is too strong you can valve it back.

 

[jennm]

The Rio may be able to push up 6' but you won't get 350 gph at 4' (average distance from sump to tank) That size Rio is for skimmers and the like.

Mass Kreation, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of older Rios. Had nothing to do with "grounding probes" or whatever. They would overheat, and the copper windings within the pumps would melt the epoxy case containing them and release all kinds of toxic goop into the system. This was particularly bad if the Rio was on a skimmer, and the return pump kept on functioning as always, pumping said goop all through the system. I've dealt with several of these instances firsthand. Mostly it was the 1700 and up models.

I haven't seen or heard of this happening in some years, or with newer models, but personally I wouldn't recommend the pumps (once bitten and all that). In this instance I don't think the Rio would be the best fit for the job.

Jenn

 

[rjrgroup]

I've had great luck with several Rio pumps and not so good luck with Mags. I will however be running all Quiet One pumps on my new set-up. They are very efficient and, well, quiet...hehe.

 

[rbredding]

I wouldnt be concerned in a 30 if you're changing tank volume more than 5X an hour...

a Maxijet would be fine for that application.. (and they're pretty quiet little pumps..) I would stay away from mag pumps.. IMO, there are far better pumps on the market (at lower prices) that don't put out the amount of heat that a MAG pump does..


I also like the marineland utility pumps and SICCE pumps..

 

[db366]

JennM;626932 wrote: The Rio may be able to push up 6' but you won't get 350 gph at 4' (average distance from sump to tank) That size Rio is for skimmers and the like.

Jenn

Yea, but from the information I have gathered my sump flow should be somewhere in the ballpark of 150 GPH. Using the head loss calculator if I was to run a Mag 3 I would still be pushing 230 GPH at 4.5 ft with 1 90, 3 45's, 2 Unions, and 1 Ball Valve.


As for throttling, If I was to get say a Mag 5 and throttle it down would that decrease it's lifespan? If I had to throttle a mag 5 it would be around halfway would that cause any problems with heat? I am not opposed to using a Mag 5 since they are easier to find used, I just don't want to pick it up and then it become an issue.

No they do not. In that research did was it explained why the flow should be that amount?
Quite One or Eheim pumps or both great little pumps .I have had better service from the Eheims. Like was mentioned if for some reason the pump is too strong you can valve it back.

From what I have read you don't want excess flow because you are just pushing more unskimmed water through your tank. Your skimmer needs to be able to keep up with the flow from your return.

 

[jennm]

I'm not sure where the "slow flow" revolution began... except through a refugium, we've *always* done 8-10 times flow through per hour. Seems that in recent years, the trend has gone to slower flow through the sump and more peripheral devices to move water.

Might be because more modern powerheads push more water, I dunno.

I guess it's one of those things where YMMV. We've maintained tanks for up to 10 years now, using that 8-10x formula, along with bi-weekly water changes, with impressive results.

There's more than one way to do most things in this hobby, so I'm not suggesting that super slow flow is "wrong"... but it's not the only option.

If you put that many twists and turns on a Rio you'd lose most of the flow too, IMO. Small powerhead-type pumps, IME, aren't intended to be used as returns (that would rule out a Maxi Jet too). They won't last very long. They are fine to use as "utility" type pumps, say to pump water change water into your system, as well as recirculating pumps/powerheads, but I'd never rely on one to be my main pump.

Just my humble opinion...

Jenn

 

[rbredding]

db366;626970 wrote: From what I have read you don't want excess flow because you are just pushing more unskimmed water through your tank. Your skimmer needs to be able to keep up with the flow from your return.

the skimmer (by it's nature) will not skim 100 % of the water flowing through the sump (it probably won't skim 1/3)..

I'm not sure why you're concerned with that..

 

[db366]

I wouldn't say I am concerned, I am just trying to get my facts straight before setting stuff up. I know the skimmer won't be able to skim all the water but it will have more time to skim more water if the sump is only moving at say 250 gph with a mag 3 or 5 throttled than it would if I had say a Mag 7 like I did on my old cube.

I see no reason to use the sump return for flow when I will already be using two powerheads that put out a combined 1000 gph.

As far as brand goes I am just gonna get whatever comes up on the for sale adds or if nothing then I might try the Rio as it's only like 25 bucks at aquabuys. Worst comes to worst I can rip it off and use it to mix saltwater.

 

[grouper therapy]

db366;627050 wrote: I wouldn't say I am concerned, I am just trying to get my facts straight before setting stuff up. I know the skimmer won't be able to skim all the water but it will have more time to skim more water if the sump is only moving at say 250 gph with a mag 3 or 5 throttled than it would if I had say a Mag 7 like I did on my old cube.

I see no reason to use the sump return for flow when I will already be using two powerheads that put out a combined 1000 gph.

As far as brand goes I am just gonna get whatever comes up on the for sale adds or if nothing then I might try the Rio as it's only like 25 bucks at aquabuys. Worst comes to worst I can rip it off and use it to mix saltwater.

Makes no difference in the performance of your skimmer as long as the flow is not less than what the skimmer pump takes in. I don't know where the whole slower flow the sump equates to better skimmer performance. The skimmer is going to remove x amount of toc per hour regardless of flow anywhere.

 

[lifestudent]

I am considering a "slow flow" through my sump and using either a closed loop or just outright use more flow generating devices in my display tank. Rather than using a return pump and have it overcome the head pressure and gravity to achieve normal turnover rates in the display tank, I plan on using less energy on my return pump and put that savings (e.g., difference) directly into the tank via a closed loop or via more in tank devices to achieve a high flow without needing to waste energy on overcoming gravity from the sump.

 

[cr500_af]

FWIW, my wife's 30g cube has a Mag 5 return, and it works very well. It is split between two returns and a SCWD, but by nature that means most of the time the full pump output is going through one Loc Line, not both. I didn't have to throttle it at all.

 

[grouper therapy]

Lifestudent;627202 wrote: I am considering a "slow flow" through my sump and using either a closed loop or just outright use more flow generating devices in my display tank. Rather than using a return pump and have it overcome the head pressure and gravity to achieve normal turnover rates in the display tank, I plan on using less energy on my return pump and put that savings (e.g., difference) directly into the tank via a closed loop or via more in tank devices to achieve a high flow without needing to waste energy on overcoming gravity from the sump.

Finally a logical answer!

 

[project1004]

Hi, for some reason my return sump level goes down every evening when I check...
Do you guys think its from the flow rate or its evaporation???!!!
thanks ^^

 

[db366]

Yes, your return is where you would install your ATO for evaporation.

 

[rjrgroup]

Lifestudent;627202 wrote: I am considering a "slow flow" through my sump and using either a closed loop or just outright use more flow generating devices in my display tank. Rather than using a return pump and have it overcome the head pressure and gravity to achieve normal turnover rates in the display tank, I plan on using less energy on my return pump and put that savings (e.g., difference) directly into the tank via a closed loop or via more in tank devices to achieve a high flow without needing to waste energy on overcoming gravity from the sump.

:yay: