Frahs or fish first?

[NanCrab]

Good morning everyone!
When we decided we wanted to get back in the hobby we discussed wanting to have a predominantly coral reef because we love the corals. But we've now seen so many beautiful fish me might want to add at some point too.
My question is, if we want a predominantly Coral tank, should we bother getting any starter fish or should we get frags and QT them to add to the DT first? I know there are different parameters and dipping and stuff that needs to be done so, once again your expert advice is appreciated

 

[civics14]

my advice is fish first cause you start adding frags in there with no nutrients, you're going to lose them. What size tank and what kind of corals are you planning?

 

[lmm1967]

Fish poop is the perfect coral food.

Fish first so you get that process / cycle started - just my opinion.

The more biodiversity you can keep in your tank the better overall health - many reef safe fish are quite hardy - hardier than corals, especially in newish tanks.

My choice - 1 or 2 small clowns WITHOUT an anemone, one of the easier to care for wrasses - be sure you can accommodate a sand sleeper if you choose one that prefers that. If you are going to add a tang - I would do that pretty quick too.

Coral quarantine is easier than a proper fish quarantine - which is another reason I vote for getting your first round of fish in the tank before corals

 

[Adam]

Fish and a reef go hand in hand. I can't picture a display tank with no fish, would seem kinda boring to me.

 

[ActiveAngel]

I agree. Fish first. My recommendation would be 1-2 Ocellaris clowns. If not Occy’s, then Perculas. These two groups include the majority of the designer clowns. Avoid any other clown species though, most of them will get very aggressive over time.

I also agree; no anemone yet (if ever). That should be a thoughtful choice worthy of much consideration, as well as be in an established tank.

If you like corals, I would avoid Sand Sifters or any other large gobies for the short-term. They can provide mild to severe irritation to corals. Choosing a small to medium sized watchman goby is fun, especially if you later choose to pair it with a pistol shrimp.

 

[NanCrab]

my advice is fish first cause you start adding frags in there with no nutrients, you're going to lose them. What size tank and what kind of corals are you planning?

We will start with softies and lps and see how that goes. I love the sps but I think maybe those are for more advanced reefers? 125g 6' x 18" x 24"

 

[NanCrab]

As always you guys are awesome!! We will pick up a couple of clowns today for the QT tank and a piece of live rock. Going to go check out Atlanta aquarium today

 

[ActiveAngel]

As always you guys are awesome!! We will pick up a couple of clowns today for the QT tank and a piece of live rock. Going to go check out Atlanta aquarium today

Personally, I prefer seeding my own dry rock over using live rock. There are just soooo many pests out there that I’d like to avoid.

Nonetheless, just inspect any rocks that you get very thoroughly. It’s a lot harder, and oftentimes nearly impossible to completely remove a pest.

 

[ActiveAngel]

As for new corals; the groupings of softies, LPS, and SPS are a very rough guideline.

There are plenty of SPS that are extremely easy (like Monti Caps), as well as Softies that are practically impossible (Carnation Coral). Keep these guidelines in mind; but choose corals based off their difficulty and your interests rather than their classification.

I would recommend 2-3 of the following for first corals:
•Green Star Polyps - don’t put these guys on your main rockwork. Rather, isolate them on a little island rock. They are a great canary coral. If something is wrong with your water, they will be your indicator when they close up.
•Zoas/Palys
•Monti Caps
•Trumpet/Candycane corals
•Discosoma or Rhodactis Mushrooms

These guys all fall in the ‘easy’ to ‘easy-moderate’ difficulty range.

•Pociloporas also fall into this category, but I consider them one of the biggest coral pests in the hobby. Seriatopora sand Stylophora are acceptable though.

 

[bhodges82]

Fish first. Adding fish will increase bioload, which will in turn put demand on the bacteria to work harder, nitrate may rise until the bacteria stabilize. Adding coral to a stable environment will be better for its long term success. If the process is done in reverse order the coral will not have nutrients and will starve, then if it survives it will be hit with a high nutrient level until the bioload catches up with the demand, totally unstable environment.

 

[Adam]

Personally, I prefer seeding my own dry rock over using live rock. There are just soooo many pests out there that I’d like to avoid.

Nonetheless, just inspect any rocks that you get very thoroughly. It’s a lot harder, and oftentimes nearly impossible to completely remove a pest.

Andrew, would you think that this was the perfect time to get a piece of live rock? Clown's don't generally have Ich and if they put the rock in QT with them there will have plenty of time to observe it for pests. If no treatments were needed then the rock could get transfer over to the display at the end of the initial cycle.

I've been tossing around the idea of getting some Tampa rock for my new system and holding it in a QT tank for a few months. The only thing the first few pieces had that we're bad were gorilla crabs. I can kill those suckers pretty quickly in a 20L or 40B with no sand or hiding places.

 

[civics14]

We will start with softies and lps and see how that goes. I love the sps but I think maybe those are for more advanced reefers? 125g 6' x 18" x 24"

I wouldn't consider SPS for advanced reefers, at least I don't consider myself as an advance reefer. My recommendations:

• You just have to do things slow and don't ever try for a quick fix using some type of chemical.
• Keep stable parameters and there is no magic number that you have to have, just as long as your parameters isn't too far out of left field.
• Consistent maintenance, whatever it is you decide to do. You start doing something weekly or bi-weekly, keep it that way.

This is what contributed to my success and hopefully it will with yours.

 

[ActiveAngel]

@anit77 I’m not worried about ich, especially with clowns as you pointed out, nor larger pests like gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp, or even bob it worms.

What concerns me more and micro-pests like Nudis, flatworms, spiders, Aiptasia, Bubble/Cotton-Candy and other algae’s, Cyano, and similar pests. Most of these can lay dormant and hide in tanks for months to years. And while there are solutions to help control their populations, they can be nearly impossible to remove completely. And doing so costs a little money and a lot of time and stress.

 

[Adam]

@anit77 I’m not worried about ich, especially with clowns as you pointed out, nor larger pests like gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp, or even bob it worms.

What concerns me more and micro-pests like Nudis, flatworms, spiders, Aiptasia, Bubble/Cotton-Candy and other algae’s, Cyano, and similar pests. Most of these can lay dormant and hide in tanks for months to years. And while there are solutions to help control their populations, they can be nearly impossible to remove completely. And doing so costs a little money and a lot of time and stress.

Cyano is, well, Cyano. We all have to deal with that from time to time. At least everyone I've ever talked to has. The main things that scare me are the different types algaes. I think most everything else would get starved out in a few months or killed with my laser. The beneficial things that come on that wild rock is really good and pretty cool to look at. I'm still up in the air about it.

 

[ActiveAngel]

Cyano is, well, Cyano. We all have to deal with that from time to time. At least everyone I've ever talked to has. The main things that scare me are the different types algaes. I think most everything else would get starved out in a few months or killed with my laser. The beneficial things that come on that wild rock is really good and pretty cool to look at. I'm still up in the air about it.

I would say that most of us “do” deal with it. But I disagree that we “have to”. With proper precautions, it can easily be avoided.

I also love the beneficial critters from wild rock. To me though, it’s just not worth the time and stress. Omg... so much stress. I’ve just seen so many tanks with nightmare infestations, and been tasked with solving them using an unlimited budget. This includes taking natural approaches, while dosing hundreds of $$$ of chemicals, and doing 2-3 large 50% WCs every week with constant water testing... and still, occasional pests will sneak through and start the process all over. It sucks. And lots of otherwise healthy animals died; corals, inverts, and fish.

What I’ve been doing is catching thousands of these beneficial critters, and moving them into all my tanks. This includes different micro-shrimp, amphipods, micro brittles, Nano conchs, chitons, and a few other families of species. I love these guys! But this way, I get some of the big benefits of live rock, but without the risks.

 

[Adam]

How/where to you "catch" them, ther people's tanks.
I'd really like to have a decent feather duster population in the new tank and I'm not sure how to go about that.

 

[ActiveAngel]

How/where to you "catch" them, ther people's tanks.
I'd really like to have a decent feather duster population in the new tank and I'm not sure how to go about that.

Great question! Naturally, lots of different species over years, so there is more than one answer.

Where did I get them? From my own tanks, from friends tanks, from the old LFS I used to manage, and sometimes in Liverock shipments that our old LFS received in which case the inverts were easier to catch because the rocks arrived wrapped in wet newspaper or in plastic bags, not underwater, so the critters were essentially already caught.

Other ways I would catch them included using traps, digging them out of sand, picking them off rocks and glass by hand, siphoning them with pipettes, and also just paying attention to which ones hide in which places. For example, I know if I look on the underside of my frag plugs, I can probably find 5-20 tiny chitons of a few different species/sizes/colors. Do this a few times a week for a few years, and you’ve amassed a large population.

I also captured a large amount during my standard coral dipping procedures (across thousands of frags). I keep a secondary clean saltwater container nearby. And if I see any beneficial inverts fall off, I scoop them up and immediately move them to that container before the toxin kills them.

 

[lmm1967]

I actually thoroughly enjoyed all the life - good & "bad" - on the tampa bay saltwater rock I bought. The only things I struggled with were the whelk snails - THOSE ARE THE DEVIL - but not hard to clear out if you want to.

Gorilla crabs - did you know those are almost trainable? I had 2 of them that would come crawling out of their hole and grab food from the tongs when it was feeding time.

I did not have much that was able to be harmed by anything from the rock I bought - except the whelks got into my other tank (common sump / return pump etc) and ate our Deresa clam.

And I think most of you already know about our Toad Fish - but that was a fluke and very atypical for TBS rock shipments.

Were it not for the price - I would not hesitate to do a semi large tank with 100% TBS sand / rock etc. The life would be amazing.

 

[ActiveAngel]

I actually thoroughly enjoyed all the life - good & "bad" - on the tampa bay saltwater rock I bought. The only things I struggled with were the whelk snails - THOSE ARE THE DEVIL - but not hard to clear out if you want to.

I think you just provided evidence demonstrating how you don’t enjoy all the life... only most of the life. Lol.

As mentioned, i also love love love the 99.9% good and not-as-bad critters. The problem is that 0.1% that is “the devil”, as you put it. (However, for me, I don’t think whelks are so bad. They’ve been easy enough for me to catch and QT in my dedicated pest-critter tanks.) But unfortunately, there are thousands of organisms on every rock. So when talking about live rock, the odds are against us. Most likely, you will encounter at least 1 such pest. And each of these nightmare pests can potentially cost thousands of dollars and potentially crash a tank.

 

[NanCrab]

As for new corals; the groupings of softies, LPS, and SPS are a very rough guideline.

There are plenty of SPS that are extremely easy (like Monti Caps), as well as Softies that are practically impossible (Carnation Coral). Keep these guidelines in mind; but choose corals based off their difficulty and your interests rather than their classification.

I would recommend 2-3 of the following for first corals:
•Green Star Polyps - don’t put these guys on your main rockwork. Rather, isolate them on a little island rock. They are a great canary coral. If something is wrong with your water, they will be your indicator when they close up.
•Zoas/Palys
•Monti Caps
•Trumpet/Candycane corals
•Discosoma or Rhodactis Mushrooms

These guys all fall in the ‘easy’ to ‘easy-moderate’ difficulty range.

•Pociloporas also fall into this category, but I consider them one of the

Thank you for this! I've saved it for future reference!