HLLE/HLLD or Hole in the Head: a theory

jmaneyapanda · Feb 25, 2010

ichthyoid;538817 wrote: I agree, why not?

There is simply too little data, much less research. At this point, it's just a theory.

The fact that we have posts every day regarding various fish maladies tells us something, I believe.

We don't see many sick fish on the reef, but then they get eaten quickly too.

It would be good to know if HLLD is even seen on a reef.

I found evidence that early human (hunter/gatherers) skeletal analysis rarely shows evidence of the cancers, diabetes, cv disease, etc. we deal with today. What changed?

I dont think you're understanding my point. I am looking to understand how you arrived at Vit D def. causing HLLE. How did you formulate this theory? If your premise is now that it can can any disease under the sun, and you just picked HLLE out of a hat, that seems rather excessively aimless. No offense intended, but I just dont have a clue as to how you are coming up with "it may be the cause of HLLE". It can be the cause of anything and everything. In order to take the first step, there needs to be a link of some kind.

As per your early human reference, that is an entirely different topic altogether, but the reasons for this is artificial selection, selective breeding, and morals and ethics. But tahts is a whole other ball of wax!!

ichthyoid · Feb 25, 2010

grouper therapy;538823 wrote: Chasing your meal down with a club for a weapon, dressed in a porcupine loin cloth tends to offer a healthier body:lol2::lol2:

If that were all there is to it, people that work-out wouldn't get sick. The fact is, that they do, and the rates are increasing for many diseases.

Example- It is hard to explain why African Americans are 40% more likely to get colorectal cancers, and have higher rates of other diseases. Even after factoring out lifestyle differences and genetic/family predisposition? The theory is that lack of sunlight due to our 'modern' lifestyle (inside much of the time) and higher melanin (pigment) in the skin prevents absorption of UV-B that is responsible for the production of vitamin D prescursors, which are then converted to vitamin D in the kidney. This correlates directly to Hispanic and Asian populations, with Caucaseans having the lowest rates and highest vitamin D levels. Coincidence? I don't think so.

ralph atl · Feb 25, 2010

I had a Yellow Tang with HLLE after/during ICH.

The Tang recovered and lived a FAT & happy life for 4 more years until MiamiDolphan got him......anyway, that's another story by eating spirulla brine, nori, & selcon.

I don't know if I'm contributing to this thread or not, just saying.............

ichthyoid · Feb 25, 2010

jmaneyapanda;538841 wrote: I dont think you're understanding my point. I am looking to understand how you arrived at Vit D def. causing HLLE. How did you formulate this theory? If your premise is now that it can can any disease under the sun, and you just picked HLLE out of a hat, that seems rather excessively aimless. No offense intended, but I just dont have a clue as to how you are coming up with "it may be the cause of HLLE". It can be the cause of anything and everything. In order to take the first step, there needs to be a link of some kind.

As per your early human reference, that is an entirely different topic altogether, but the reasons for this is artificial selection, selective breeding, and morals and ethics. But tahts is a whole other ball of wax!!

I will paste what I found on Wikipedia, which summarises everything I have read about HLLD. Autoimmune syndromes are defined by the body attacking itself, often in very specific areas/tissues. Many autoimmune diseases are inversely correlated to vitamin D levels. Additionally, the vitamins A & C are associated with immunity and healing (see below). All of this IMO tends to point to an immunity issue. Like most things, it will likely be a simple cause.

-From Wikipedia on HLLD

Causes
There is much debate as to the cause of HLLE. Very little http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Scientific_method">scientific research</a> has been done on the topic, and most information available is anecdotal.
Removing carbon from the filter is a commonly suggested remedy for the disease. It is suggested that the carbon may either a.) add fine carbon particles to the water that irritate the skin, b.) leach [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Phosphate">phosphates</a> and other potentially harmful chemicals into the water, or c.) remove minerals that are important to the health of the fish. Though there have been many reports of affected fish recovering after carbon has been removed, no studies have substantiated these theories, and many aquariums use carbon while still having healthy fish.
Many people believe that [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Parasite">parasites</a> of the genus [I][IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Hexamita">Hexamita</a>, a flagellated [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Protozoa">protozoan</a>, is to blame. HLLE and [I]Hexamita infections are often seen in the same specimens.[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/#cite_note-2">[3]</a> However, HLLE can be found in many fish who do not have a [I]Hexamita infection, suggesting that a [I]Hexamita infection may cause stress or interfere with the absorption of vitamins and minerals causing malnutrition, which may be the actual cause of the disease. [I]Hexamita may also be a [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Infection">secondary infection</a> common in fish already weakened by HLLE.
Individual studies have shown that improvement in [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Nutrition">nutrition</a> will help symptoms most effectively. [B]Key vitamins in preventing or curing HLLE seem to be Vitamins A, C, and D[/B]. [B]Adding these vitamins to the diet of affected fish usually leads to improvement[/B], however, deficiencies in any of these vitamins do not always lead to HLLE, so nutrition is also questionable as a cause.
It has also been suggested that HLLE is an [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Autoimmunity">autoimmune disorder</a> that is triggered by stress.[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/#cite_note-3">[4]</a> [B]The disease does not appear to occur to fish in the wild, only those in captivity, supporting the idea that stress and unnatural living conditions are to blame.[/B] Anything that reduces stress appears to help in the prevention and recovery from this disease.

[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_the_head_disease">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_the_head_disease</a>

-From Wikipedia on vitamin A

[B]Vitamin A deficiency also diminishes the ability to fight infections[/B]. In countries where children are not [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Immunization_(medicine)">immunized</a>, infectious disease like [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Measles">measles</a> have higher fatality rates. As elucidated by [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Alfred_Sommer_(ophthalmologist)">Dr. Alfred Sommer</a>, even mild, subclinical deficiency can also be a problem, as it may increase children's risk of developing respiratory and diarrheal infections, decrease growth rate, slow bone development, and decrease likelihood of survival from serious illness

[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A_deficiency">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A_deficiency</a>

-From Wikipedia on vitamin C

Pathogenesis
[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Ascorbic_acid">Ascorbic acid</a> is needed for a variety of biosynthetic pathways, by accelerating [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Hydroxylation">hydroxylation</a> and [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Amidation">amidation</a> reactions. In the synthesis of [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Collagen">collagen</a>, ascorbic acid is required as a cofactor for [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Prolyl_hydroxylase">prolyl hydroxylase</a> and [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Lysyl_hydroxylase">lysyl hydroxylase</a>. These two enzymes are responsible for the hydroxylation of the [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Proline">proline</a> and [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Lysine">lysine</a> amino acids in collagen. Hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine are important for stabilizing collagen by cross-linking the propeptides in collagen.[B] Defective collagen fibrillogenesis impairs wound healing.[/B] Collagen is also an important part of bone, so bone formation is also affected. Defective connective tissue also leads to fragile capillaries, resulting in abnormal bleeding.

[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy</a>

Also, finally-

[B]The most widely recognized symptoms of vitamin C deficiency in fishes are [/B][IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Scoliosis">[B]scoliosis[/B]</a>[B], [/B][IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Lordosis">[B]lordosis[/B]</a>[B] and dark skin coloration[/B]. Freshwater [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Salmonid">salmonids</a> also show impaired [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Collagen">collagen</a> formation, internal/fin haemorrhage, spinal curvature and increased mortality. If these [B]fishes are housed in seawater with algae and phytoplankton, then vitamin supplementation seems to be less important, it is presumed because of the availability of other, more ancient, antioxidants in natural marine environment[/B].[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/#cite_note-25">[26]</a>

Interesting, no?

ralph atl · Feb 25, 2010

grouper therapy · Feb 25, 2010

ichthyoid;538845 wrote: If that were all there is to it, people that work-out wouldn't get sick. The fact is, that they do, and the rates are increasing for many diseases.

Example- It is hard to explain why African Americans are 40% more likely to get colorectal cancers, and have higher rates of other diseases. Even after factoring out lifestyle differences and genetic/family predisposition? The theory is that lack of sunlight due to our 'modern' lifestyle (inside much of the time) and higher melanin (pigment) in the skin prevents absorption of UV-B that is responsible for the production of vitamin D prescursors, which are then converted to vitamin D in the kidney. This correlates directly to Hispanic and Asian populations, with Caucaseans having the lowest rates and highest vitamin D levels. Coincidence? I don't think so.

I was trying to be funny! I got milk!:yes:

mikesommers · Feb 25, 2010

ichthyoid;538897 wrote: I will paste what I found on Wikipedia, which summarises everything I have read about HLLD. Autoimmune syndromes are defined by the body attacking itself, often in very specific areas/tissues. Many autoimmune diseases are inversely correlated to vitamin D levels. Additionally, the vitamins A & C are associated with immunity and healing (see below). All of this IMO tends to point to an immunity issue. Like most things, it will likely be a simple cause.

-From Wikipedia on HLLD

Causes
There is much debate as to the cause of HLLE. Very little http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Scientific_method">scientific research</a> has been done on the topic, and most information available is anecdotal.
Removing carbon from the filter is a commonly suggested remedy for the disease. It is suggested that the carbon may either a.) add fine carbon particles to the water that irritate the skin, b.) leach [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Phosphate">phosphates</a> and other potentially harmful chemicals into the water, or c.) remove minerals that are important to the health of the fish. Though there have been many reports of affected fish recovering after carbon has been removed, no studies have substantiated these theories, and many aquariums use carbon while still having healthy fish.
Many people believe that [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Parasite">parasites</a> of the genus [I][IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Hexamita">Hexamita</a>, a flagellated [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Protozoa">protozoan</a>, is to blame. HLLE and [I]Hexamita infections are often seen in the same specimens.[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/#cite_note-2">[3]</a> However, HLLE can be found in many fish who do not have a [I]Hexamita infection, suggesting that a [I]Hexamita infection may cause stress or interfere with the absorption of vitamins and minerals causing malnutrition, which may be the actual cause of the disease. [I]Hexamita may also be a [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Infection">secondary infection</a> common in fish already weakened by HLLE.
Individual studies have shown that improvement in [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Nutrition">nutrition</a> will help symptoms most effectively. [B]Key vitamins in preventing or curing HLLE seem to be Vitamins A, C, and D[/B]. [B]Adding these vitamins to the diet of affected fish usually leads to improvement[/B], however, deficiencies in any of these vitamins do not always lead to HLLE, so nutrition is also questionable as a cause.
It has also been suggested that HLLE is an [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Autoimmunity">autoimmune disorder</a> that is triggered by stress.[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/#cite_note-3">[4]</a> [B]The disease does not appear to occur to fish in the wild, only those in captivity, supporting the idea that stress and unnatural living conditions are to blame.[/B] Anything that reduces stress appears to help in the prevention and recovery from this disease.

[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_the_head_disease">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_in_the_head_disease</a>

-From Wikipedia on vitamin A

[B]Vitamin A deficiency also diminishes the ability to fight infections[/B]. In countries where children are not [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Immunization_(medicine)">immunized</a>, infectious disease like [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Measles">measles</a> have higher fatality rates. As elucidated by [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Alfred_Sommer_(ophthalmologist)">Dr. Alfred Sommer</a>, even mild, subclinical deficiency can also be a problem, as it may increase children's risk of developing respiratory and diarrheal infections, decrease growth rate, slow bone development, and decrease likelihood of survival from serious illness

[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A_deficiency">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_A_deficiency</a>

-From Wikipedia on vitamin C

Pathogenesis
[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Ascorbic_acid">Ascorbic acid</a> is needed for a variety of biosynthetic pathways, by accelerating [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Hydroxylation">hydroxylation</a> and [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Amidation">amidation</a> reactions. In the synthesis of [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Collagen">collagen</a>, ascorbic acid is required as a cofactor for [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Prolyl_hydroxylase">prolyl hydroxylase</a> and [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Lysyl_hydroxylase">lysyl hydroxylase</a>. These two enzymes are responsible for the hydroxylation of the [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Proline">proline</a> and [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Lysine">lysine</a> amino acids in collagen. Hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine are important for stabilizing collagen by cross-linking the propeptides in collagen.[B] Defective collagen fibrillogenesis impairs wound healing.[/B] Collagen is also an important part of bone, so bone formation is also affected. Defective connective tissue also leads to fragile capillaries, resulting in abnormal bleeding.

[IMG]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy</a>

Also, finally-

[B]The most widely recognized symptoms of vitamin C deficiency in fishes are [/B][IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Scoliosis">[B]scoliosis[/B]</a>[B], [/B][IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Lordosis">[B]lordosis[/B]</a>[B] and dark skin coloration[/B]. Freshwater [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Salmonid">salmonids</a> also show impaired [IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/wiki/Collagen">collagen</a> formation, internal/fin haemorrhage, spinal curvature and increased mortality. If these [B]fishes are housed in seawater with algae and phytoplankton, then vitamin supplementation seems to be less important, it is presumed because of the availability of other, more ancient, antioxidants in natural marine environment[/B].[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/#cite_note-25">[26]</a>

Interesting, no?[/QUOTE]

Interesting, YES!

mikesommers · Feb 25, 2010

grouper therapy;538910 wrote: I was trying to be funny! I got milk!:yes:

:lol2:

jmaneyapanda · Feb 25, 2010

First and foremost, and I hope some of you agree with me- we shouldnt even wipe our backsides with wikipedia. It is written by everybody with no backup. But, even it were pertinant, what does that except tell me? Not much. It basically says we dont know anything about HLLE.

Im sorry to say, Im not too convinced at this point. Im certainly not saying it isnt possible, but thus far, I cant say Im seeing any reason to say that Vit D has any influence. Ill pay attention though.

ichthyoid · Feb 25, 2010

mysterybox;538900 wrote: no.

Fair enough.

grouper therapy;538910 wrote: I was trying to be funny! I got milk!:yes:

Sorry Dave. I do that sometimes. I did like the porcupine loincloth though!

I'm just very passionate about this, I guess. I thought that I would share some of it.

ichthyoid · Feb 25, 2010

I have read hundreds of articles and papers on this subject, and it is still evolving. The story is by no means complete, and likely will not be for years to come.

I realize Wikipedia for what it is. It is a usually concise, usually accurate repository of reference. Are there errors? Yes, but they generally don't last long.

I am pushing the envelope here and I know it, purposefully.

I don't have any conclusive evidence. It doesn't exist. As stated, this is a theory. As I come across something I believe to be plausible, based on good science and of possible interest to this hobby, I will likely post it. If it's not your cup of tea, then thats fine too.

ralph atl · Feb 25, 2010

ichthyoid;538953 wrote: I have read hundreds of articles and papers on this subject, and it is still evolving. The story is by no means complete, and likely will not be for years to come.

I realize Wikipedia for what it is. It is a usually concise, usually accurate repository of reference. Are there errors? Yes, but they generally don't last long.

I am pushing the envelope here and I know it, purposefully.

I don't have any conclusive evidence. It doesn't exist. As stated, this is a theory. As I come across something I believe to be plausible, based on good science and of possible interest to this hobby, I will likely post it. If it's not your cup of tea, then thats fine too.

So what is in brine, nori, and Selcon that cured my Tang?

jmaneyapanda · Feb 25, 2010

ichthyoid;538953 wrote: I have read hundreds of articles and papers on this subject, and it is still evolving. The story is by no means complete, and likely will not be for years to come.

I realize Wikipedia for what it is. It is a usually concise, usually accurate repository of reference. Are there errors? Yes, but they generally don't last long.

I am pushing the envelope here and I know it, purposefully.

I don't have any conclusive evidence. It doesn't exist. As stated, this is a theory. As I come across something I believe to be plausible, based on good science and of possible interest to this hobby, I will likely post it. If it's not your cup of tea, then thats fine too.

No no, its just that I dont follow at all how youre getting to where youre at. All I can gather thus far is that vit. D def. MAY be the cause of any marine fish disease. Or it can be anything else. I would assume that if our fish were vit. D def. to the point of expressing metabolic disorder, it would be in gross anatomical issues as in with other animals. I hope you can show some insight, one way or the other.

ichthyoid · Feb 25, 2010

mysterybox;538957 wrote: So what is in brine, nori, and Selcon that cured my Tang?

I don't know.

My theory is that if you add vitamin D to your feeding regimen, I believe that your fish will be healthier, and it may prevent HLLD.

grouper therapy · Feb 25, 2010

I appreciate your posting it really!!. I also appreciate others pushing us to think through or to explain how we derive at our conclusions or theories. Some of us (me) are not educated or familiar with the subject matter so we throw sarcasm in the mix which makes us (me ) feel like we are contributing.:yes:

ichthyoid · Feb 25, 2010

jmaneyapanda;538959 wrote: No no, its just that I dont follow at all how youre getting to where youre at. All I can gather thus far is that vit. D def. MAY be the cause of any marine fish disease. Or it can be anything else. I would assume that if our fish were vit. D def. to the point of expressing metabolic disorder, it would be in gross anatomical issues as in with other animals. I hope you can show some insight, one way or the other.

There appears to be deficiency levels 'in-between' what would cause rickets and what causes other metabolic related disorders. Vitamin D deficiency in particular causes problems regulating T-lymphocytes, which are the first line of defense in the immune system. Autoimmune issues like diabetes, arthritis and MS are due to Lymphocytes attacking the bodies own tissue. We don't know exactly why or how, it just does. I am proposing that a fishes immune system turns on the tissues of the lateral line system and begins destroying them in a similar manner.

ichthyoid · Feb 25, 2010

grouper therapy;538971 wrote: I appreciate your posting it really!!. I also appreciate others pushing us to think through or to explain how we derive at our conclusions or theories. Some of us (me) are not educated or familiar with the subject matter so we throw sarcasm in the mix which makes us (me ) feel like we are contributing.:yes:

I think you are a much smarter man than you claim to be Dave. I read, and value, your posts.

The way we all grow is by learning new things.

Part of the way I really get my head around things is in constructive arguments like this. I have thick skin.

brianjfinn · Feb 25, 2010

This is another one of those truly great threads! Thank you, both Bill and Jeremy, for having this discussion. It's debates like these that add so much to the value of this club!

enderg60 · Feb 25, 2010

Skriz;538666 wrote: That's because you don't have my top secret cure :yes:

let me guess, your planning to bottle it as "the most important addative for your fish"?

Hmm, Ive been toying with the idea of dosing vitamin C can someone point me to a good source?

jmaneyapanda · Feb 25, 2010

ichthyoid;538987 wrote: There appears to be deficiency levels 'in-between' what would cause rickets and what causes other metabolic related disorders. Vitamin D deficiency in particular causes problems regulating T-lymphocytes, which are the first line of defense in the immune system. Autoimmune issues like diabetes, arthritis and MS are due to Lymphocytes attacking the bodies own tissue. We don't know exactly why or how, it just does. I am proposing that a fishes immune system turns on the tissues of the lateral line system and begins destroying them in a similar manner.

But.....why dont we see such destructive intermediates in other animals? Surely, if it were to cuase such a sensationalize event in marine teleosts, we'd some something similar in other vertebrates, to any degree? Why dont we?

Some questions about your theory in general, too. Why do you speculate it target certain fish MUCH greater than others, if it is a metabolic automimmune disorder? It seems that entire families, rather than specific genera and species would feel these effects. Also, if it is indeed an autoimmune disorder, why do you feel it demonstrates itself externally, and provide no other health impairment at all? These fish with HLLE and even severe damage can live "happily" and grow tremendously, despite the emchanical damage to their extern.

Please understand, I enjoy discussing thsi with you. And I am asking to actually hear your viewpoint, not anything otherwise.

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