ich everywhere after tank swap
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Wow.. So much "wonderful" information and "great" advice... /sarcasm
Ya, you should run out and get a cleaner wrasse... And who is going to clean the cleaner wrasse?!? /now_end_sarcasm
How much metro does your fish need?!? Well, that is a function of body weight.. Have you weighed your fish lately? On top of that, do you know how much he is going to ingest?!? (Lets even PRETEND that the scientific literature suggested that Metro would work, which it does not) I am glad people do not medicate their kids the way they medicate their tanks. /seriously_now_I_am_done
So basically Stacy gets the award for the most correct answer (Ralph takes a close second place). But you should know what type of copper that you are using and BEFORE you use copper you should know that not all animals (mainly angels) take copper well, so you better know what you are doing. Plus, you should also know that you QT tank will have copper in it for a long time(it is hard to remove) and so I would be very careful about ever QTing an Angel in there or an invert again.
For future reference, I would have either A) done a FW dip of all the fish from the main tank into the QT tank or B) done a Formalin 3 dip on the way into QT. Then I would have run the tank fallow at a higher temperature (80-82) for 5-6 weeks. That is, if you want to eradicate it. If you want to manage it, keep your tank like you did before the swap. Obviously you had Ich in there if you did not introduce any new fish in the swap and your old tank was "managed" with it already in there.
Ya, you should run out and get a cleaner wrasse... And who is going to clean the cleaner wrasse?!? /now_end_sarcasm
How much metro does your fish need?!? Well, that is a function of body weight.. Have you weighed your fish lately? On top of that, do you know how much he is going to ingest?!? (Lets even PRETEND that the scientific literature suggested that Metro would work, which it does not) I am glad people do not medicate their kids the way they medicate their tanks. /seriously_now_I_am_done
So basically Stacy gets the award for the most correct answer (Ralph takes a close second place). But you should know what type of copper that you are using and BEFORE you use copper you should know that not all animals (mainly angels) take copper well, so you better know what you are doing. Plus, you should also know that you QT tank will have copper in it for a long time(it is hard to remove) and so I would be very careful about ever QTing an Angel in there or an invert again.
For future reference, I would have either A) done a FW dip of all the fish from the main tank into the QT tank or B) done a Formalin 3 dip on the way into QT. Then I would have run the tank fallow at a higher temperature (80-82) for 5-6 weeks. That is, if you want to eradicate it. If you want to manage it, keep your tank like you did before the swap. Obviously you had Ich in there if you did not introduce any new fish in the swap and your old tank was "managed" with it already in there.
Wow! A real live expert. Of course others must be wrong.
In my opinion, there are lots of correct answers here and a few that are not correct but to totally disparage all those who may differ and set yourself up as the only one who could possibly be correct is a bit presumptuous wouldn't you say?
Here is what I know (or think I know). Ich is a parasite.
1. It does not in itself kill the fish. It weakens the fish thereby allowing other causes to kill the fish.
2. The parasite must have a host to survive. Therefore if the fish are removed from the tank the parasite dies off. If no fish are present when the eggs hatch they will also die.
3. Moving fish is stressful. Therefore moving a fish that is already stressed CAN make it worse.
4. Treatments like copper can kill the parasite but can also be stressful on the fish which may already be nearing the breaking point.
5. Feeding heavy with Metro, Focus Nd Garlic do not affect the parasite but does increase the fishes strength allowing it to better deal with the parasite.
6. Cleaner wrasses and shrimp do not eat the parasite but eat the dead tissue on the fish.
This last one is purely theory but I suspect there is truth in it. A fish that has fought a won a battle with ich builds up a bit of strength to fight it better the next time. It may show signs when stressed but with some help via the feeding method it is able to combat the parasite.
As I said, I don't claim all of this to be gospel but what I have gathered from a lot of people who seem to know this hobby very well.
I know you all think I have no heart but now I have an ultrasound to prove it.
<span style="color: blue">There are many ways of doing things in our hobby. There is also a lot of misinformation as well. I wish people would consult scientific literature about pathogens to learn about their lifecycle and proven ways of keeping them from infecting the animals we place in our care. It is the best interest of the organisms not to default to misconceptions and anecdotal evidence, even if it's the easy way out. </span>
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<span style="color: #0000ff">I would also add that <u>Cryptocaryon</em></u> can live comfortably in water temperatures ranging from 56-86 degrees F. Some strains are not affect by hyposalinity as low as 1.009. Freshwater dips do not reach the tomonts that are embedded within the fish's tissue. </span>
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I am not even going to touch this statement. All I will say is if you only knew.
Again Stacy is the star student for the day. Although the part on the FW dip and Hypo is suspect, for fear of starting a classic Maneyapanda war we will stay away from that discussion.
And still I would be very careful even using Cupramine. The original poster did not state what was in his tank or what he was treating. Calling any copper safe (ionic, non-cheleated, or otherwise) is a bit of a reach. Heck even Seachem does not "endorse" the idea of using Cupramine with angels. They stand on the fence about it, "We have seen good results and we have seen angels die. If we were going to use it on angels we would use it at 1/2 dose." Copper, including cupramine, still has other risks including killing beneficial intestinal flora in fish like tangs, lowering fish's resistance to other diseases, causing serious potential damage to the kidney and liver, and potentially contributing to the cause of HLLE. Not to mention that it still leaches into the silicone of the QT tank and can be a mother to remove 100%. So treating lions, puffers, mandarins, blennies, angels, and tangs with it is a real risk. Better short and long term treatments IMHO.
I have heard all sorts of claims over the years... Garlic, ginger, Ginko, pepper... Sounds like a good recipe but unless you are going to cook up that clown fish... Garlic does have some merits for some things (and even those are debatable at this point) but IF it cured ICH (or even made less the rate of ICH and made the fish "stronger") then why do we have ICH today when garlic "treatments" have been around for 18+ years since I have been in the hobby? If it cured or made the fish stronger the rate of the infection would have declined to modern day polio numbers. Every food would have garlic, every importer would be treating the holding tanks with garlic. Every fish store would be feeding garlic and there would be big advertisement signs that say "WE USE GARLIC". I mean garlic is cheap so if it prevented 1 fish loss out of 100 then that would cover the cost of the product and in a modern capitalist society the almighty dollar would dictate that it be used to increase profits. (Even more so now that the cost of importation of fish has risen 200% in the past few years) Could it be that Garlic is cheap to produce and garlic supplements cost pennies to make but sell for $10+. Or food "medicated" with garlic sells for 2xs as much? Maybe that is the reason garlic is handed down as a "cure" to the masses. Just fish food for thought...
+1stacy22;936172 wrote: Brandon, it's nice to see you here again!
All,
Before you go any further, please go read this thread:
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Thanks for the welcome.. I never really left, just took a break. But good to see some of the "old" faces still around. I just started up a tank again since someone "made" me get back into the hobby. At any rate, I just could not sit by as people exclaim to "get a cleaner wrasse ASAP". Why introduce a fish that is going to be exposed to the same pathogen that you are trying to cure? Who is going to cure the "cure"?!?
Hanin: Thanks for posting that link. It would have taken me forever to find that in all my posts. Glad you are better at a computer than I am. Some of that info is still good, others i would revise a bit from 7 years ago. But hope that some still find it useful. Good to see ya and hope all is well!
I suggest all that are interested in fish pathology get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Disease-Diagnosis-Edward-Noga/dp/0813806976">http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Disease-Diagnosis-Edward-Noga/dp/0813806976</a> I do not have this new edition (Edward was supposed to send me a copy and never did, cheapskate), but I hear great things about the new edition.
Rich is right though, do not take my word for anything, research and know for yourself! Some things have changed since my days of being an "expert" in fish pathology (like the use of H2O2 in brooklynella treatment: interesting stuff for fish nerds) but many things are still the same. BUT, I am not the one asking for help with Ich either. So take that for what it is worth.
I am glad to see people like Stacy still around to give good advice though. (Personally good to see ya too) Keep it up! We need more good information out there.
Ok, enough about that. Thanks again for the welcome. I am going to go back under my rock for a bit. Part of my AA program (Aquarist Anonymous) says that I can only have limited contact with forums! :) I have already broken the rules by keeping a cooler in my trunk and traveling around the state looking for frags of my old tank I gave to people and picking up new, cheap, coral for my new tank.
But good to see some of the "old" faces still around. I just started up a tank again since someone "made" me get back into the hobby. At any rate, I just could not sit by as people exclaim to "get a cleaner wrasse ASAP". Why introduce a fish that is going to be exposed to the same pathogen that you are trying to cure? Who is going to cure the "cure"?!?Hanin: Thanks for posting that link. It would have taken me forever to find that in all my posts. Glad you are better at a computer than I am. Some of that info is still good, others i would revise a bit from 7 years ago. But hope that some still find it useful. Good to see ya and hope all is well!
I suggest all that are interested in fish pathology get this book: http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Disease-Diagnosis-Edward-Noga/dp/0813806976">http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Disease-Diagnosis-Edward-Noga/dp/0813806976</a> I do not have this new edition (Edward was supposed to send me a copy and never did, cheapskate), but I hear great things about the new edition.
Rich is right though, do not take my word for anything, research and know for yourself! Some things have changed since my days of being an "expert" in fish pathology (like the use of H2O2 in brooklynella treatment: interesting stuff for fish nerds) but many things are still the same. BUT, I am not the one asking for help with Ich either. So take that for what it is worth.
I am glad to see people like Stacy still around to give good advice though. (Personally good to see ya too) Keep it up! We need more good information out there.
Ok, enough about that. Thanks again for the welcome. I am going to go back under my rock for a bit. Part of my AA program (Aquarist Anonymous) says that I can only have limited contact with forums! :) I have already broken the rules by keeping a cooler in my trunk and traveling around the state looking for frags of my old tank I gave to people and picking up new, cheap, coral for my new tank.
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LOL this thread was not supposed to be a coming out party, but again, thanks for the warm welcome. Ralph, it is funny because I was just checking out pictures of your build a few years ago. Glad to see ya upgrade and doing well!
A little update...
On Sunday night I moved my other 3 fish (tang, clowns, and basslet was already moved) to the QT/hospital tank. It appeared as though the ich was getting worse on my tang. I wasnt quite two days into the metro/focus treatment. I ultimately decided that I was tired of monkeying around and I want to severely reduce the risk of this happening again.
Here is the Hospital/QT tank.
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Now my reef is fishless. I was still at half the recommended dosage of cupramine when I added the other three fish. The Basslet has responded well to the treatment. He went from not swimming to swimming and eating within the first two days.
I cranked the temp in my DT up to 82 degrees to speed up the ich cycle. I will assess where things are in 4 weeks.
Now for questions:
What is the right way to transition my fish back to the DT? My biological filtration will probably suffer to some degree. I have a relatively light bioload for a 60 gallon tank? Should I stagger the return of fish? Before the transition, I will do a series of water changes in the QT tank using DT water. At that point it should just be a matter of temp acclimation (for the most part).
Thanks for all the info. I read the long thread posted earlier. Your further advice is appreciated.
On Sunday night I moved my other 3 fish (tang, clowns, and basslet was already moved) to the QT/hospital tank. It appeared as though the ich was getting worse on my tang. I wasnt quite two days into the metro/focus treatment. I ultimately decided that I was tired of monkeying around and I want to severely reduce the risk of this happening again.
Here is the Hospital/QT tank.
Now my reef is fishless. I was still at half the recommended dosage of cupramine when I added the other three fish. The Basslet has responded well to the treatment. He went from not swimming to swimming and eating within the first two days.
I cranked the temp in my DT up to 82 degrees to speed up the ich cycle. I will assess where things are in 4 weeks.
Now for questions:
What is the right way to transition my fish back to the DT? My biological filtration will probably suffer to some degree. I have a relatively light bioload for a 60 gallon tank? Should I stagger the return of fish? Before the transition, I will do a series of water changes in the QT tank using DT water. At that point it should just be a matter of temp acclimation (for the most part).
Thanks for all the info. I read the long thread posted earlier. Your further advice is appreciated.
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Congrats on the QT first off...
If you are running copper in the QT you need to do some fairly regular water changes.. Normally I would not recommend that HOB filter since copper will leach into almost everything.. but I have plenty of copper remover if you ever need some and we can try to clean it up.
DO NOT ADD YOUR QT WATER TO THE DT or vice versa... if your QT has copper in it that would be a very bad thing to add that water to your DT. When you are ready, just acclimate the fish like you normally would. (You do drip acclimate your fish for about an hour before you put them in the tank, right?) As long as you are not running hypo-salinity they will acclimate just fine. If you are (and I normally run my QT at hypo) then you should slowly increase the salinity over the course of a week before you acclimate to the DT.
If you are running copper in the QT you need to do some fairly regular water changes.. Normally I would not recommend that HOB filter since copper will leach into almost everything.. but I have plenty of copper remover if you ever need some and we can try to clean it up.
DO NOT ADD YOUR QT WATER TO THE DT or vice versa... if your QT has copper in it that would be a very bad thing to add that water to your DT. When you are ready, just acclimate the fish like you normally would. (You do drip acclimate your fish for about an hour before you put them in the tank, right?) As long as you are not running hypo-salinity they will acclimate just fine. If you are (and I normally run my QT at hypo) then you should slowly increase the salinity over the course of a week before you acclimate to the DT.
Quick update: fish are still out of the display tank. They have recovered nicely.
The "micro" organisms seem to be exploding in my display. I have been seeing this little white things floating around. I first thought they were the swimming form of ich: however, apparently we are not supposed to be able to see ich at this stage.
So, I am assuming that the specs are pods. Could they be anything else? Corals and inverts are doing really well.
The "micro" organisms seem to be exploding in my display. I have been seeing this little white things floating around. I first thought they were the swimming form of ich: however, apparently we are not supposed to be able to see ich at this stage.
So, I am assuming that the specs are pods. Could they be anything else? Corals and inverts are doing really well.
Welcome back to the addiction Brandon!
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Thanks Ray
Yep your tank should explode with micro life. You will see more pods than you know what to do with. You can not see ich swimming around. So what you are seeing are either small pods or shrimp.
Yep your tank should explode with micro life. You will see more pods than you know what to do with. You can not see ich swimming around. So what you are seeing are either small pods or shrimp.
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