Interesting discussion

[ripped tide]

Today, I spoke with a Red Sea sales rep. He came by the shop to talk to us about some of their products.

(I am a huge fan of the coral pro salt)

He showed us the full line of their supplements and test kits. While explaining the chart on the back of their calcium bottle, something stood out to me. The categories were:

Softies/low nutrient system-sps 430ppm
Lps 450ppm
Sps frag tank 465ppm

I thought to myself, now why would a frag tank be kept so much higher than a low nutrient sps tank? And if the alk and mag are balanced with the ca, should the actual levels contribute THAT much to growth? So I asked him!

His response was: that when the ca is around 430ppm Abd other levels balanced, ions can freely flow through the cell tissue and when the coral NEEDS to use the ion in calcification, it is available.

He said that when levels are 465ppm and balanced, the ions cannot freely flow, and calcification/growth is forced.

When growth is forced, there is an unnatural demand for energy. Photosynthesis can only keep up with SO much. In a frag tank, that is heavily fed and trates are between 5-1ppm and phates are .1-.04, the corals get the extra energy they need to grow from the nutrients around them.

He said that in an ULNS, when growth is forced, and the energy sources are limited, the corals tend to quickly grow, but often lack the colors that we want to see.



I digested the info, and I was seeing what you wonderful people have to say. Any thoughts?

 

[jmike50]

Good information to have...thanks mike

 

[ripped tide]

jmike50;764645 wrote: Good information to have...thanks mike

As much as I'd like to believe that it is good info, I'm still waiting to see what folks have to say. I'd like to know if someone can further educate me on the subject.

 

[ralph atl]

Hogwash...

Our hobby test kits aren't even that precise to measure the difference between 430, and 460 truly, nevermind......

Calcium will also fluctuation as 2 part (or other form) is added and some are used and precipitated out....

 

[ripped tide]

Thanks for speaking up Ralph! I kinda wanted to call BS, but just let him do his pitch.

 

[falos]

Kinda interesting I rember reading a article on aa about low phosphate levels can help in the growth of reef building corals so I can see the low phos and trates in helping growth in the frag tank
I'm just not shure how a increased cal can force growth and lower colors in coral. zooxanothile is a brown algae wen a coral produces high amounts of the algae vs size of coral they darken down loosing color usuly a sign of to long of a photo period causing an increase in alge production in the coral
In uln systems the watter is striped clean by the filtration (&media) lowering the food source in the tank causing the coral to produce less zooxanothile alowing there real colors of the coral to show
I would like to see the data from the test it seams like it would be realy expensive to run 3 systems with the same corals, time laps photos, recorded weights ,identical lighting with the same par results water flow, placement and don't for git daily spectralanalysis of the water parameters to maintain a constant

But you had me at softies and ulns in the same line

 

[ripped tide]

But at the same time, I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other. They claim their test kits are dead on accurate.

 

[dawgface]

mysterybox;764688 wrote: Hogwash...

Our hobby test kits aren't even that precise to measure the difference between 430, and 460 truly, nevermind......

Calcium will also fluctuation as 2 part (or other form) is added and some are used and precipitated out....

I don't see where flawed tests kits have anything to do with the fundamentals of his theory?

Edit: Or are you just saying this is all theoretical and not worth the effort of chasing due to the inability to test properly?

 

[falos]

But at the same time, I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other. They claim their test kits are dead on accurate.

I claim there blowing smoke up your. With that one no test kit can be dead on in the hands of the hobbiest were talking adding regents to a test tube with the drop method or the small spoon there supplied with there is no accuracy in a drop sum are bigger sum smaller same with there scopes
I would rather here the rep say our test kits are +-% accurate wen being used out side a lab controlled environment
after all are you shure there is 5ml of tank watter in a clean test tube

 

[ralph atl]

DawgFace;764695 wrote: I don't see where flawed tests kits have anything to do with the fundamentals of his theory?

Edit: Or are you just saying this is all theoretical and not worth the effort of chasing due to the inability to test properly?

Both.....

Due to hobby test kits as is, You would never know if you were at 430 or 460, then, your tank also will fluctuate due to the uneven amount of additions and consumption. Even if you had lab grade kits, so it wouldn't matter, because the concentration will fluctuate throughout the day....

As long as calcium is available for use, say above 380....then the free ions will be used as needed by those inverts that use it, based upon Alk, Calcium, and directly, PH. It will be soluble to be used by inverts...as long as ALK & Calcium are in a range that is usable, that is........if its free, it's free....
Otherwise it would all precip out anyway, or not be soluble.....

 

[silver surfer]

he's a sales rep...just saying

 

[ripped tide]

What if he is right? All these people who complain of their coral's tips burning, or not being pretty, or not growing quickly.... Everyone wants to blame lights, and especially leds.


It seems like it is everyone's goal to have an ULNS. Algae is a pain, so anything that can keep it from growing helps. What is the number one complaint from someone who recently switched to an ULNS? They loose color. Why? Because they are stripped of the nutrients that they were consuming to produce color.

As far as calling their claim a load of crap, I would like to see good research either proving it, or disproving it. The company is basing their whole product line on this concept. They have some very good products. Don't you think that the company has a little bit of time and money invested in research and development? Otherwise, I'm sure one of the big wigs in the hobby would be quick to call them out.

 

[shanepike]

And as a guy who employs salespeople, I can say emphatically that just because he's a sales guy doesn't automatically discredit him. There are</em> companies who have great products and great salespeople who educate customers about</em> those products. There are probably more just after a quick sale, but some of us actually do it the right way.

 

[falos]

I'm not bashing redsea I use there products and there salt is sum of the best on the market I'm just saying hobbie grade test kits are never 100% maybe if they came with digital syringes and scales for the reagents and a new test tube for each test then maybe they could claim 100% accurate

I would realy like to see the test data for the cal. It. Would be a realy expensive and time consuming test and I realy don't see a company investing that much resource and not publishing it

Sales reps are there to promote there products and increase sales

 

[liverock27]

Even if he is blowing smoke up your back side at least you got to talk to someone at Red Sea. In my experiences with them they have had horrible customer service. It takes weeks to hear back from them and that is only if you send multiple emails about the same problem.

 

[ripped tide]

LiveRock27;764798 wrote: Even if he is blowing smoke up your back side at least you got to talk to someone at Red Sea. In my experiences with them they have had horrible customer service. It takes weeks to hear back from them and that is only if you send multiple emails about the same problem.

It you are still having issues pm me

 

[silver surfer]

I used red sea coral pro salt for a while and switched to tropic Marin bio. Levels in tank seem to be more stable. I like both salts but sticking with tm bio. Every tank is different.

Red sea has great customer service.

Not bashing sale guys...just saying

 

[skriz]

Have him produce a study proving his claim.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I dont understand what he is claiming. That low nutrient systems has calcification occur in different methods than with high nutrient systems? If so, that sounds like a giant pile of BS to me. Corals use cellular energy and sugars to calcify. And translating nutrient rich water into cellular energy is quite a leap, if Im understanding him properly.

 

[grouper therapy]

Skriz;764864 wrote: Have him produce a study proving his claim.

I agree:up: