Kalc Reactor/doser ideas

[derek_s]

I'm a little confused on kalk dosing, so let me ask, do you usually mix up your kalc, get the effluent, and then add it to your doser, or is the commercially available stirrers an all-n-one that mixes, separates, and doses?

The reason I ask is that I have been playing around with the idea of using a kalk doser that is electronically controlled by a PH controller. Basically it doses calc to maintain PH. It would work similarly to a calc reactor, but it turns on to raise PH instead of turning off if it gets too low. Is there an error to this?

 

[william1]

You should PM Sam from aqua buys he has a nice kalk stirrer and ATO set up with a few other things to dose his aquarium at the store.. Neat little set up.

 

[acroholic]

corvettecris;165143 wrote: I'm a little confused on kalk dosing, so let me ask, do you usually mix up your kalc, get the effluent, and then add it to your doser, or is the commercially available stirrers an all-n-one that mixes, separates, and doses?

The reason I ask is that I have been playing around with the idea of using a kalk doser that is electronically controlled by a PH controller. Basically it doses calc to maintain PH. It would work similarly to a calc reactor, but it turns on to raise PH instead of turning off if it gets too low. Is there an error to this?

I have this exact type setup. I have an MRC Nilsen Reactor inline with a Tunze Osmolator. One of the risks of dosing kalk, expecially with a Nilsen Reactor, is raising the pH so high you kill your corals, so a pH controller with a low setpoint is used as a safety item. The controller is set to energize an outlet until a certain pH is reached. Mine energizes the outlet until pH hits 8.3, then it turns off the outlet. I use an American Marine controller, as it has a high and low setpoint. I have my Osmolator and Nilsen Reactor powered by this outlet, so if the pH gets way too high, it turns off both of them, which would give me the time needed to find and correct whatever the issue is before everything in the tank dies.

This type setup works the opposite way a pH controller works in a Calcium reactor or adding CO2 to a planted tank: The outlet is energized until a certain low ph is reached in a calcium reactor, whereas in a Kalk stirrer, the outlet is energized until a certain high pH is reached.

Below is a link to Customaquatics.com. They sell a "Reverse Point" SMS 122, which works exactly as you need it in a Nilsen Reactor (Kalk Stirrer) setup. Basically wired in reverse of the standard SMS 122. It is about $97, or half the cost of the American Marine unit.

http://www.customaquatic.com/customaquatic/itemdetail.asp?subcatindexid=di-mc-ph&itemid=DI-MKSMS122-RS">http://www.customaquatic.com/customaquatic/itemdetail.asp?subcatindexid=di-mc-ph&itemid=DI-MKSMS122-RS</a>

Dave

 

[derek_s]

Thanks. this is exactly what I wanted to know. I already have a SMS 122 with a broken switch, so I was just going to wire a SPDT relay into a box so I can change it back and forth in its switching functions. I just didnt know if there was an error to this.

I dont have a kalk reactor. I was just going to mix kalk on the side, and add it to a reservoir in the tank stand. A pump would pump in the kalk and dump it right next to the PH probe. This would cause a PH spike, turning the pump off until the ph drops back down. Basically, I thin this would pulse the pump until the PH is fairly stable. The only drawbacks I see are:

1: too much calcium or akalinity...can this happen when kalking a system to a certain ph?

2: An overflow: assuming for some reason PH is really low (or probe/controller error) the pump would continuously pump resulting in overflow. I guess an electronic float cutoff could avoid this.

3: Probe/controller failure: Basically, it would either pump PH up too high, or overflow tank.

Any ideas?

 

[derek_s]

Oh, and one last idea, I thought about instead of apump, I would use an air pump, like used in FW aquariums. It would cut on with the controller, and pressurize a container, forcing the kalkwater to travel up a dip tube to the tank. I think this would be a good way of avoiding motor burn ups without an elec. cutoff. Also, the container could be smaller (~1 gallon) for my 34 gal tank to avoid/minimize overflows.

What are your opinions?

 

[acroholic]

I would only add Kalkwasser to the tank as part of a float switch controlled auto topoff system.

 

[derek_s]

Are you saying use the controller and everything as I described, but in addition use a float valve to prevent overflow?

 

[acroholic]

corvettecris;166713 wrote: Are you saying use the controller and everything as I described, but in addition use a float valve to prevent overflow?

I would only use a dosing type pump with kalkwasser addition, meaning a peristaltic type, and not a maxi or mini jet. Their flow rates are too high, unless you have it valved back a great deal.

Also, I would not place the pH probe right next to where the kalkwasser enters the system. The thing you want is stability in the calcium/alk. levels, and the probe should either be in the tank or in the sump where tank water enters. You really have an inaccurate reading where the kalkwasser enters the tank. I have mine placed in the sump where tank water enters.

You really don't need to pulse the topoff system if you have a float valve. You want small amounts of kalkwasser to enter the system as water evaporates, "use it as you lose it" in other words. That way the pH does not spike on you from the kalkwasser.

Another thing to remember: If you use a topoff system, always disable it if you are accclimating a new fish and are using or removing any significant amount of tank water, as your topoff system will sense the loss and can inadvertantly add a lot of high pH kalkwasser to the system.

 

[liverock27]

Acroholic;166722 wrote:
Another thing to remember: If you use a topoff system, always disable it if you are accclimating a new fish and are using or removing any significant amount of tank water, as your topoff system will sense the loss and can inadvertantly add a lot of high pH kalkwasser to the system.

+1

 

[derek_s]

I guess my next question is this...

Can all your top off water be kalk? Or is it better to have an RO top off and a kalk doser? I think my understanding was that this might drive the PH up if you are evaporating a lot of water.

 

[ministry]

i have a 180gal system, I test for cal and alk weekly, based on the outcome of these test, I make a batch of kalkwasser that I dose/drip at 1.2 gal per day, the strength depends on the system consuption. My system isn't that old so I'm still charting out a good baseline.

So, depending on my calc/alk needs, and evaporation needs I create the proper dose to give to my system.

My only top off water is the kalk.

I would say that if you should be testing calc / alk / and PH to determine what you need to add and how much you should be adding.

 

[acroholic]

ministry;166785 wrote: i have a 180gal system, I test for cal and alk weekly, based on the outcome of these test, I make a batch of kalkwasser that I dose/drip at 1.2 gal per day, the strength depends on the system consuption. My system isn't that old so I'm still charting out a good baseline.

So, depending on my calc/alk needs, and evaporation needs I create the proper dose to give to my system.

My only top off water is the kalk.

I would say that if you should be testing calc / alk / and PH to determine what you need to add and how much you should be adding.

Exactly what I would have posted as well. :thumbs:

 

[derek_s]

Ok, So you are changing the mix until you get the right mixture for your needs. Got it. I was hoping you could just dose kalc to maintain PH, and calcium and alkalinity would follow suit fairly predictably. This way, you could mix the kalk the same every time, and just depend on a controller to decide when and how much to dose.

I really just want something that can run a week on it's own, topping off and dosing appropriately, with a failsafe option. I do have a small calcium reactor, but I don't want to drive the ph down.

 

[derek_s]

Actually, Acroholic, if you get a second and dont mind, could you explain how your setup works in detail so I might attempt to copy it? I'd like to know what pumps you are using and how everything is set up and dosed.

 

[acroholic]

corvettecris;166919 wrote: Actually, Acroholic, if you get a second and dont mind, could you explain how your setup works in detail so I might attempt to copy it? I'd like to know what pumps you are using and how everything is set up and dosed.

Chris,
My system is pretty standard. I guess it is fairly high end, meaning the equipment, but I see no reason it could not be duplicated as DIY. Here is a chain of equipment in my topoff/Kalk dosing setup:

Sump containing Tunze Osmolator infrared water level sensor and backup float switch safety (sounds alarm if tripped). Have the float switch in the same area where your return pump is located. IR sensor lead goes to----->

R/O Reservoir and is connected to a Tunze Osmolator Pump inside it, when water level drops, pump (with check valve placed inline between pump and Nilsen) sends water to------>

MRC Nilsen Reactor (has MJ PH in the top). Reactor set on a timer to mix 5 minutes every 4 hours. This only recirculates the Kalkwasser. Water fed by the dosing pump enters Nilsen at the bottom and leaves saturated at the top of the Nilsen to------>

Get dosed into the sump near the return pump inlet.

Controller feeding power to the Tunze pump/Nilsen Reactor has the probe placed in the intake side of sump. This gives a true reading of what the tank pH is. If you place the probe anywhere near the Kalkwassser drip into the sump you will turn the power tot he Nilsen and the Dosing pump off because of the false high pH reading you will get.

Kalkwasser leaves a Nilsen at pH of 12 or higher.

Dave

 

[derek_s]

Thanks a lot Dave, that really helped me picture it. I was really just unsure if you were always dosing kalk on top off, or if it could top off with either RO or kalk.

So how do you maintain the correct ration of kalk to RO? Is this all run on one dosing/peristaltic pump?

Thanks again.

 

[acroholic]

corvettecris;167008 wrote: Thanks a lot Dave, that really helped me picture it. I was really just unsure if you were always dosing kalk on top off, or if it could top off with either RO or kalk.

So how do you maintain the correct ration of kalk to RO? Is this all run on one dosing/peristaltic pump?

Thanks again.

The way I maintain correct amounts of Kalk going in is by varying the amount of time the Nilsen mixes it. The more often (times of mix or length of mixing) you mix the kalk with the water in the reactor, the more supersaturated the water leaving is. The less mix time the less saturation you will have. Imagine putting water into your sump that is actively mixed vs water that is basically just passing over a bunch of Kalk in the bottom of a tube. If I find my pH/alk is too high, I would lessen the mix time in the Nilsen reactor, and vice versa if pH or alk is too low.
Dave

 

[derek_s]

OK, makes perfect sense. So I guess it is just a game of trial and error to get it right.

So the controller completely shuts off your top off, right? (In case of high PH)

 

[acroholic]

corvettecris;167179 wrote: OK, makes perfect sense. So I guess it is just a game of trial and error to get it right.

So the controller completely shuts off your top off, right? (In case of high PH)

Completely shuts off, correct.
Dave

 

[derek_s]

Dave, finally got mine set up last night. It is a Deltec unit. I set mine to run for 2 minutes every 2 hours for now. THanks again for your help.